I was recently approached to whether my role is btb, should free woman be magistrates, there is some discussion that a free woman would not be given the authority to impale a free man for example, what if he was a spy?
I would love to hear your thoughts and quotes , there is nothing that says free woman cannot be magistrates ......this is all that I found
" I had seen few women, but knew that they, when free,
were promoted or demoted within the caste system according
Tarnsman of Gor [Gor Series Book 1]
by John Norman
49
to the same standards and criteria as the men, although this
varied, I was told, considerably from city to city. On the
whole, I liked the people I met, and I was confident that they
were largely of Earth stock, that their ancestors had been
brought to the planet in Voyages of Acquisition. Apparently,
after having been brought to the planet, they had simply
been released, much as animals might be released in a forest
preserve, or fish stocked free in a river."
Mercy Riiser:
I do think that certain roles can be more difficult for a woman to fill in Gor than for a man just given the basics of what Gor is all about. But except for certain roles like warriors and a few others I don't see why a FW can't take on almost any role in SL. Given the reality of how many more women there in SL than men I think there is just a practical side to what it takes to run a sim. Obviously, a FW might get more bosk crap than a FM might get for taking on certain roles but I'd rather have a capable FW rp'ing as Magistrate handling issues BTB than an incompetent and lousy man rp'er in that same role. Just saying..... :)
Meri Slade:
Honestly I wouldn't worry about whether a FW can or can't be a Magistrate. Like Mercy said, we have lopsided gender numbers in SL Gor. If we only let male avs play some of these roles, there'd be a lot of empty roles. I would draw the line at warrior, Ubar, etc. But if you're looking for quotes and book proof, then you should also dig out the ones about FW being kept in towers and how only the men of the family worked in the caste.
Do your thing and anyone that complains to you can try to take the position away IC instead of whining about it OOCly.
Junea Demonia:
I would not worry about book quotes and endless discussions if women can fill certain roles or not. If the sim you play in allows you to be a female magistrate then you ARE the magistrate.
Thunder Wheatcliffe:
I've been lurking for a while and love seeing the comments and messages thorughout this forum.
One role I have had issue with a woman filling is Slaver. Frankly, it is a personal bias, and not one that is based on book quotations. I can certainly see this role of kennel mistress, though that can also be a slave role. In any case, my two tarsks - nothing philosophical, just an opinion.
Adoveea Rau:
I agree, we have enough lack of men in roles, magistrate is one of those that can be filled. You want more male magistrates? Get more male players. Simple as that.
Looks at Thunder VERY oddly
You know Fighting Slave of Gor IS one of the HUGE references for women slavers running and owning slave houses and training them. Male slaves was a specialty for Lady Tina.
Book or not, i personally no problems with women being slavers actually better then that ridiculous ooc title of kennel mistress..UNLESS you are referring to the appointment of a former male exotic slave-with oversized ear lobes in Assassin of Gor- Ho-Tu the Master Keeper.
I agree, we have enough lack of men in roles, magistrate is one of those that can be filled. You want more male magistrates? Get more male players. Simple as that.
Looks at Thunder VERY oddly
You know Fighting Slave of Gor IS one of the HUGE references for women slavers running and owning slave houses and training them. Male slaves was a specialty for Lady Tina.
Book or not, i personally no problems with women being slavers actually better then that ridiculous ooc title of kennel mistress..UNLESS you are referring to the appointment of a former male exotic slave-with oversized ear lobes in Assassin of Gor- Ho-Tu the Master Keeper.
Badeddy resident:
I agree with everyone who say its ok for her to be magistrate. There are more important battles to have in the name of BTB than this one. To get people to read as far as chapter 2 of Tarnsman would be one. I have seen awesome female magistrates, players who truly could play their role well.
But if we go BTB all the way, I think a women would deserve a metal for reaching that title
I agree with everyone who say its ok for her to be magistrate. There are more important battles to have in the name of BTB than this one. To get people to read as far as chapter 2 of Tarnsman would be one. I have seen awesome female magistrates, players who truly could play their role well.
But if we go BTB all the way, I think a women would deserve a metal for reaching that title
Raven:
A Magistrate has to be able to enforce the law, keep the peace and command men to carry out orders. Kind of like a Sheriff. I can't see a woman doing this in Norman's version of Gor. I guess she could have a bunch of guards who follow her around and crack skulls on her behalf but honestly who would respect such a person? Goreans probably wouldn't. Sounds a lot like Tarna to me.
A Magistrate has to be able to enforce the law, keep the peace and command men to carry out orders. Kind of like a Sheriff. I can't see a woman doing this in Norman's version of Gor. I guess she could have a bunch of guards who follow her around and crack skulls on her behalf but honestly who would respect such a person? Goreans probably wouldn't. Sounds a lot like Tarna to me.
Druhsus:
I agree with most here. I rather have a woman that walks the walk as a magistrate (or any other role) than a man who only talks a good game and then when he loses can just bitch and whine about it.
I agree with most here. I rather have a woman that walks the walk as a magistrate (or any other role) than a man who only talks a good game and then when he loses can just bitch and whine about it.
Clovisb Resident:
There's nothing wrong with female magistrates ...
If there was something wrong with female magistrates then it would equally be wrong for free women to be able to hire their own private guards to do their bidding etc.
It's exactly because the example of Tarna was given, and how the men there didn't mind following the orders of a woman, that it gives us evidence that gorean men surely wouldn't mind following the orders of a female Magistrate either.
We even are given the exact quote that Ubara's had entire armies at their fingers tips to command as they pleased... And if the scene of the Polemarkos of Cos teaches us anything it shows us even how goreans didn't even mind to grovel at the feet of a high slave either to get in good standing with someone.
Whatever SL Gor has been trying to teach people ... Gorean men were not ultra-dommes who would refuse to obey orders from female superiors.
There's nothing wrong with female magistrates ...
If there was something wrong with female magistrates then it would equally be wrong for free women to be able to hire their own private guards to do their bidding etc.
It's exactly because the example of Tarna was given, and how the men there didn't mind following the orders of a woman, that it gives us evidence that gorean men surely wouldn't mind following the orders of a female Magistrate either.
We even are given the exact quote that Ubara's had entire armies at their fingers tips to command as they pleased... And if the scene of the Polemarkos of Cos teaches us anything it shows us even how goreans didn't even mind to grovel at the feet of a high slave either to get in good standing with someone.
Whatever SL Gor has been trying to teach people ... Gorean men were not ultra-dommes who would refuse to obey orders from female superiors.
consuelo albanese:
A Magistrate is a city official, with the backing of the city's leadership or they wouldn't be Magistrate. To say that a female Magistrate wouldn't garner any respect from a typical Gorean male wouldn't be very by-the-book at all. If Marlenus appointed Lady Kath (a high caste Scribe) as a Magistrate of Ar, you'd better believe that Joe Biker Gorean would offer her the respect that she deserved... or face a higher court.
A Magistrate is a city official, with the backing of the city's leadership or they wouldn't be Magistrate. To say that a female Magistrate wouldn't garner any respect from a typical Gorean male wouldn't be very by-the-book at all. If Marlenus appointed Lady Kath (a high caste Scribe) as a Magistrate of Ar, you'd better believe that Joe Biker Gorean would offer her the respect that she deserved... or face a higher court.
Raven:
Quote from: Druhsus on 03. April 2013, 04:28:04
I agree with most here. I rather have a woman that walks the walk as a magistrate (or any other role) than a man who only talks a good game and then when he loses can just bitch and whine about it.
LOL. Someone is angry with me I think.
Quote from: Druhsus on 03. April 2013, 04:28:04
I agree with most here. I rather have a woman that walks the walk as a magistrate (or any other role) than a man who only talks a good game and then when he loses can just bitch and whine about it.
LOL. Someone is angry with me I think.
Raven:
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 05:14:29
There's nothing wrong with female magistrates ...
If there was something wrong with female magistrates then it would equally be wrong for free women to be able to hire their own private guards to do their bidding etc.
It's exactly because the example of Tarna was given, and how the men there didn't mind following the orders of a woman, that it gives us evidence that gorean men surely wouldn't mind following the orders of a female Magistrate either.
We even are given the exact quote that Ubara's had entire armies at their fingers tips to command as they pleased... And if the scene of the Polemarkos of Cos teaches us anything it shows us even how goreans didn't even mind to grovel at the feet of a high slave either to get in good standing with someone.
Whatever SL Gor has been trying to teach people ... Gorean men were not ultra-dommes who would refuse to obey orders from female superiors.
I don't think a female "superior" such as an Ubara is the point of the question. The question asked was should free women be Magistrates in Gor. I assume we are talking about the Gor from the books. In SL Gor women can do anything depending on how by the books the sim is.
Tarna was put in power by the Salt Ubar to insult the two tribes of the Tahari. The men under her were just following his orders. A female being in command of the men was in fact a big deal. She had no real power or command though and the moment she had to do any real fighting she was easily bested by Tarl Cabot. JN used her as an example of why female fighters/commanders don't work, at least in his version of Gor. We've discussed this before.
Quote
“And strangest of all,” said the merchant, leaning forward, looking at us intently, “is the fact that the Aretai raiders were led by a woman!”
“A woman?” asked Hassan.
“Yes,” said the merchant.
Tribesmen of Gor P.179
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 05:14:29
There's nothing wrong with female magistrates ...
If there was something wrong with female magistrates then it would equally be wrong for free women to be able to hire their own private guards to do their bidding etc.
It's exactly because the example of Tarna was given, and how the men there didn't mind following the orders of a woman, that it gives us evidence that gorean men surely wouldn't mind following the orders of a female Magistrate either.
We even are given the exact quote that Ubara's had entire armies at their fingers tips to command as they pleased... And if the scene of the Polemarkos of Cos teaches us anything it shows us even how goreans didn't even mind to grovel at the feet of a high slave either to get in good standing with someone.
Whatever SL Gor has been trying to teach people ... Gorean men were not ultra-dommes who would refuse to obey orders from female superiors.
I don't think a female "superior" such as an Ubara is the point of the question. The question asked was should free women be Magistrates in Gor. I assume we are talking about the Gor from the books. In SL Gor women can do anything depending on how by the books the sim is.
Tarna was put in power by the Salt Ubar to insult the two tribes of the Tahari. The men under her were just following his orders. A female being in command of the men was in fact a big deal. She had no real power or command though and the moment she had to do any real fighting she was easily bested by Tarl Cabot. JN used her as an example of why female fighters/commanders don't work, at least in his version of Gor. We've discussed this before.
Quote
“And strangest of all,” said the merchant, leaning forward, looking at us intently, “is the fact that the Aretai raiders were led by a woman!”
“A woman?” asked Hassan.
“Yes,” said the merchant.
Tribesmen of Gor P.179
Violetta Daviau:
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 08:41:22
... She had no real power or command though and the moment she had to do any real fighting she was easily bested by Tarl Cabot. ...
As Tarl, as central Gorean warrior caste member - and hero of the story - bested every man, also the taharian tribesmen who had not the pleasure of his caste training.
Unlike the men he bested though he made compliments about Tarna's fighting skills, which he, if I remember, did neither about other woman he quarreled with (e.g. panther girls).
That though only as sidenote, to not derail the thread...
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 08:41:22
... She had no real power or command though and the moment she had to do any real fighting she was easily bested by Tarl Cabot. ...
As Tarl, as central Gorean warrior caste member - and hero of the story - bested every man, also the taharian tribesmen who had not the pleasure of his caste training.
Unlike the men he bested though he made compliments about Tarna's fighting skills, which he, if I remember, did neither about other woman he quarreled with (e.g. panther girls).
That though only as sidenote, to not derail the thread...
Raven:
Quote from: Violetta Daviau on 03. April 2013, 09:12:13
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 08:41:22
... She had no real power or command though and the moment she had to do any real fighting she was easily bested by Tarl Cabot. ...
As Tarl, as central Gorean warrior caste member - and hero of the story - bested every man, also the taharian tribesmen who had not the pleasure of his caste training.
Unlike the men he bested though he made compliments about Tarna's fighting skills, which he, if I remember, did neither about other woman he quarreled with (e.g. panther girls).
That though only as sidenote, to not derail the thread...
I wouldn't agree that he complimented her fighting skills. He actually told her she wasn't all that.
Quote
"Fool!" she said. "Sleen! I am Tarna!" She lifted the scimitar. "I am more than a match for any man!" she cried.
I met her charge. She was not unskillful. I fended her blows. I did not lay the weight of my own steel on hers, that I not tire her arm. I let her strike, and slash, and feint and thrust. Twice she drew back sddenly in fear, almost a wince, or reflex, realizing she had exposed herself to my blade, but I had not struck her.
"You are not a match for a warrior," I told her. It was true. I had crossed steel with hundreds of men, in practice and in the fierce games of war, who could have finished her, swiftly and with ease, had they chosen to do so.
--Tribesmen of Gor P. 390
Quote from: Violetta Daviau on 03. April 2013, 09:12:13
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 08:41:22
... She had no real power or command though and the moment she had to do any real fighting she was easily bested by Tarl Cabot. ...
As Tarl, as central Gorean warrior caste member - and hero of the story - bested every man, also the taharian tribesmen who had not the pleasure of his caste training.
Unlike the men he bested though he made compliments about Tarna's fighting skills, which he, if I remember, did neither about other woman he quarreled with (e.g. panther girls).
That though only as sidenote, to not derail the thread...
I wouldn't agree that he complimented her fighting skills. He actually told her she wasn't all that.
Quote
"Fool!" she said. "Sleen! I am Tarna!" She lifted the scimitar. "I am more than a match for any man!" she cried.
I met her charge. She was not unskillful. I fended her blows. I did not lay the weight of my own steel on hers, that I not tire her arm. I let her strike, and slash, and feint and thrust. Twice she drew back sddenly in fear, almost a wince, or reflex, realizing she had exposed herself to my blade, but I had not struck her.
"You are not a match for a warrior," I told her. It was true. I had crossed steel with hundreds of men, in practice and in the fierce games of war, who could have finished her, swiftly and with ease, had they chosen to do so.
--Tribesmen of Gor P. 390
Conall DeCuir:
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 02. April 2013, 19:30:42
I was recently approached to whether my role is btb, should free woman be magistrates, there is some discussion that a free woman would not be given the authority to impale a free man for example, what if he was a spy?
I would love to hear your thoughts and quotes , there is nothing that says free woman cannot be magistrates ......this is all that I found
" I had seen few women, but knew that they, when free,
were promoted or demoted within the caste system according
Tarnsman of Gor [Gor Series Book 1]
by John Norman
49
to the same standards and criteria as the men, although this
varied, I was told, considerably from city to city. On the
whole, I liked the people I met, and I was confident that they
were largely of Earth stock, that their ancestors had been
brought to the planet in Voyages of Acquisition. Apparently,
after having been brought to the planet, they had simply
been released, much as animals might be released in a forest
preserve, or fish stocked free in a river."
That quote of you has for me nothing to do with putting women into power and is just a generalised explaining how caste membership/culture was handled at gor. We know, that free women could be of caste, like free men.
But yet
[women] ...seldom release the following instinct in men. Men, accordingly, do not on the whole, care to follow them. In doing so they generally feel uncomfortable. It makes them uneasy. They sense the absurdity, the unnaturalness, of the relationship. It is thus that normal men commonly follow women only unwillingly, and only with reservations, usually also only within an artificial context or within the confines of a misguided, choiceless or naive institution, where their discipline may be relied upon. Their compliance with orders in such a situation cannot help but be more critical, more skeptical. Their activities tend then to be performed with less confidence, and more hesitantly. This often produces serious consequences to the efficiency of their actions. It is interesting to note that even women seldom care to follow women, particularly in critical situations. The male, biologically, for better or for worse, appears to be the natural leader. In the perversion of nature, of course, anything may occur. ...
---Players of Gor, 15:288
I am not saying, that it would be absolutly impossible that there are female magistrates but they would be very very rare and their workplace would be inside the courthall only and much more limited. They wouldn't be men.
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 02. April 2013, 19:30:42
I was recently approached to whether my role is btb, should free woman be magistrates, there is some discussion that a free woman would not be given the authority to impale a free man for example, what if he was a spy?
I would love to hear your thoughts and quotes , there is nothing that says free woman cannot be magistrates ......this is all that I found
" I had seen few women, but knew that they, when free,
were promoted or demoted within the caste system according
Tarnsman of Gor [Gor Series Book 1]
by John Norman
49
to the same standards and criteria as the men, although this
varied, I was told, considerably from city to city. On the
whole, I liked the people I met, and I was confident that they
were largely of Earth stock, that their ancestors had been
brought to the planet in Voyages of Acquisition. Apparently,
after having been brought to the planet, they had simply
been released, much as animals might be released in a forest
preserve, or fish stocked free in a river."
That quote of you has for me nothing to do with putting women into power and is just a generalised explaining how caste membership/culture was handled at gor. We know, that free women could be of caste, like free men.
But yet
[women] ...seldom release the following instinct in men. Men, accordingly, do not on the whole, care to follow them. In doing so they generally feel uncomfortable. It makes them uneasy. They sense the absurdity, the unnaturalness, of the relationship. It is thus that normal men commonly follow women only unwillingly, and only with reservations, usually also only within an artificial context or within the confines of a misguided, choiceless or naive institution, where their discipline may be relied upon. Their compliance with orders in such a situation cannot help but be more critical, more skeptical. Their activities tend then to be performed with less confidence, and more hesitantly. This often produces serious consequences to the efficiency of their actions. It is interesting to note that even women seldom care to follow women, particularly in critical situations. The male, biologically, for better or for worse, appears to be the natural leader. In the perversion of nature, of course, anything may occur. ...
---Players of Gor, 15:288
I am not saying, that it would be absolutly impossible that there are female magistrates but they would be very very rare and their workplace would be inside the courthall only and much more limited. They wouldn't be men.
Aphris Myoo:
Quote from: Conall DeCuir on 03. April 2013, 10:02:05
I am not saying, that it would be absolutly impossible that there are female magistrates but they would be very very rare and their workplace would be inside the courthall only and much more limited. They wouldn't be men.
The quote following yours proves that. It states that women can get power (in this case through the Ubar) and that she can make many men believe she is a leader. But as you said "she would never be a man"
Quote from: Players of Gor
I looked up at the Lady Yanina. How small and soft, and luscious, she was. How absurd then, and how unnatural, seemed her position of power, temporary though it might be, over these men. How envious she seemed of men, particularly of her rival, Flaminius. How she was straining to seem a leader, how she must have studied what she took to be its lessons well, how she must have firmly resolved to act that role with determination. Perhaps if she did it well she could fool men; perhaps, if she did it well, she could boldly carry off the pretense; perhaps, if she did it well, she would be accepted almost as though she were a real leader, a true leader. Perhaps, if she did it well, no one would notice that she was really only a small, soft, shapely, lovely creature, one whose natural destiny would be found quite elsewhere than in the saddle of a tharlarion, at the head of troops.
Females can play the role of a leader, but they should do it as a female, not as a man.
Quote from: Conall DeCuir on 03. April 2013, 10:02:05
I am not saying, that it would be absolutly impossible that there are female magistrates but they would be very very rare and their workplace would be inside the courthall only and much more limited. They wouldn't be men.
The quote following yours proves that. It states that women can get power (in this case through the Ubar) and that she can make many men believe she is a leader. But as you said "she would never be a man"
Quote from: Players of Gor
I looked up at the Lady Yanina. How small and soft, and luscious, she was. How absurd then, and how unnatural, seemed her position of power, temporary though it might be, over these men. How envious she seemed of men, particularly of her rival, Flaminius. How she was straining to seem a leader, how she must have studied what she took to be its lessons well, how she must have firmly resolved to act that role with determination. Perhaps if she did it well she could fool men; perhaps, if she did it well, she could boldly carry off the pretense; perhaps, if she did it well, she would be accepted almost as though she were a real leader, a true leader. Perhaps, if she did it well, no one would notice that she was really only a small, soft, shapely, lovely creature, one whose natural destiny would be found quite elsewhere than in the saddle of a tharlarion, at the head of troops.
Females can play the role of a leader, but they should do it as a female, not as a man.
Clovisb Resident:
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 08:41:22
I don't think a female "superior" such as an Ubara is the point of the question. The question asked was should free women be Magistrates in Gor. I assume we are talking about the Gor from the books. In SL Gor women can do anything depending on how by the books the sim is.
I don't see the ... point of what you tried to say.
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
It doesn't matter who appointed Tarna as a Commander or not either, the men under her still had to follow her orders. Neither did the scribes complain when Tarl made a slave-girl head of their accounting business in Port Kar, neither did the men seem ashamed of groveling at the feet of a slave-girl (of the Polemarkos of Cos) to get her favour.
And what does a woman do who owns personal guards? She orders them around.
The books are full with men having female superiors, sometimes even slaves as superiors... Besides the quotes given from Players of Gor where Tarl is doing his crazy-talk in the narration... since Tarl always is the uber-dom anti-feminist. It's not because Tarl says or thinks something in the books that it's 'true'... He's just an exaggurated chauvenistic unstoppable superman in the books to piss off the feminist movement.
If Cookie Monster had been the main character in the books we'd have read endless passages about how cookies are the best thing in the world. If Stalin had been the main character in the books we would've had endless narration about how ridiculous democracy is and how unfallible and just communism is... doesn't mean it's true or strokes with reality, we'd just be hearing the (deranged) political opinion of the main character in the narration the whole time.
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 08:41:22
I don't think a female "superior" such as an Ubara is the point of the question. The question asked was should free women be Magistrates in Gor. I assume we are talking about the Gor from the books. In SL Gor women can do anything depending on how by the books the sim is.
I don't see the ... point of what you tried to say.
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
It doesn't matter who appointed Tarna as a Commander or not either, the men under her still had to follow her orders. Neither did the scribes complain when Tarl made a slave-girl head of their accounting business in Port Kar, neither did the men seem ashamed of groveling at the feet of a slave-girl (of the Polemarkos of Cos) to get her favour.
And what does a woman do who owns personal guards? She orders them around.
The books are full with men having female superiors, sometimes even slaves as superiors... Besides the quotes given from Players of Gor where Tarl is doing his crazy-talk in the narration... since Tarl always is the uber-dom anti-feminist. It's not because Tarl says or thinks something in the books that it's 'true'... He's just an exaggurated chauvenistic unstoppable superman in the books to piss off the feminist movement.
If Cookie Monster had been the main character in the books we'd have read endless passages about how cookies are the best thing in the world. If Stalin had been the main character in the books we would've had endless narration about how ridiculous democracy is and how unfallible and just communism is... doesn't mean it's true or strokes with reality, we'd just be hearing the (deranged) political opinion of the main character in the narration the whole time.
Zophie Cabassoun:
I guess i am a bit old fashioned here, feeling a female magistate somehow would ruin my picture of being in Gor.
Its for me, a bit the same as femlaws. We know the majority of players are women and many women are way better in using the bow then men, but still we do not want women to be warriors...
Played well and maybe with a NPC high magistrate, it could maybe be done - but I would hate to see it all over and as a general thing.
Keeping it realistic i would personally prefer to see a woman making a male avi and play the role like that - as some do to be able to fight- I am sure 'he' would gain much more respect from other men as well that way:)
But it just me - I can be so stiff in my ways of Gor that it kills me sometimes! :)
I guess i am a bit old fashioned here, feeling a female magistate somehow would ruin my picture of being in Gor.
Its for me, a bit the same as femlaws. We know the majority of players are women and many women are way better in using the bow then men, but still we do not want women to be warriors...
Played well and maybe with a NPC high magistrate, it could maybe be done - but I would hate to see it all over and as a general thing.
Keeping it realistic i would personally prefer to see a woman making a male avi and play the role like that - as some do to be able to fight- I am sure 'he' would gain much more respect from other men as well that way:)
But it just me - I can be so stiff in my ways of Gor that it kills me sometimes! :)
Violetta Daviau:
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 09:32:13
...
I wouldn't agree that he complimented her fighting skills. He actually told her she wasn't all that.
Quote
"Fool!" she said. "Sleen! I am Tarna!" She lifted the scimitar. "I am more than a match for any man!" she cried.
I met her charge. She was not unskillful. I fended her blows. I did not lay the weight of my own steel on hers, that I not tire her arm. I let her strike, and slash, and feint and thrust. Twice she drew back sddenly in fear, almost a wince, or reflex, realizing she had exposed herself to my blade, but I had not struck her.
"You are not a match for a warrior," I told her. It was true. I had crossed steel with hundreds of men, in practice and in the fierce games of war, who could have finished her, swiftly and with ease, had they chosen to do so.
--Tribesmen of Gor P. 390
That bold is what I meant, surely she was not a match for a trained warrior - but neither were the men in the Tahari apparently, and what he tells about the other men he fought tells that those could have bested HER, but obviously neither him...
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 09:32:13
...
I wouldn't agree that he complimented her fighting skills. He actually told her she wasn't all that.
Quote
"Fool!" she said. "Sleen! I am Tarna!" She lifted the scimitar. "I am more than a match for any man!" she cried.
I met her charge. She was not unskillful. I fended her blows. I did not lay the weight of my own steel on hers, that I not tire her arm. I let her strike, and slash, and feint and thrust. Twice she drew back sddenly in fear, almost a wince, or reflex, realizing she had exposed herself to my blade, but I had not struck her.
"You are not a match for a warrior," I told her. It was true. I had crossed steel with hundreds of men, in practice and in the fierce games of war, who could have finished her, swiftly and with ease, had they chosen to do so.
--Tribesmen of Gor P. 390
That bold is what I meant, surely she was not a match for a trained warrior - but neither were the men in the Tahari apparently, and what he tells about the other men he fought tells that those could have bested HER, but obviously neither him...
Conall DeCuir:
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:11:29
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
There's no Ubara without an Ubar and she would be only in charge because of him and if he lets her.
Now for being Tatrix or Commander of men, sure that happend but it wasn't common and if, then only honored at her Home Stone as long the men made her and let her be ... in the case of a female Magistrate, to speak judgement as the men wished, as she was told ? and not because of what she wanted to do ? Now you can of course say, that even a male Magistrate could possibly be bribed or be forced to act as a toy in a game of men, but how long would that work ?
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:11:29
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
There's no Ubara without an Ubar and she would be only in charge because of him and if he lets her.
Now for being Tatrix or Commander of men, sure that happend but it wasn't common and if, then only honored at her Home Stone as long the men made her and let her be ... in the case of a female Magistrate, to speak judgement as the men wished, as she was told ? and not because of what she wanted to do ? Now you can of course say, that even a male Magistrate could possibly be bribed or be forced to act as a toy in a game of men, but how long would that work ?
Clovisb Resident:
Quote from: Conall DeCuir on 03. April 2013, 11:37:07
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:11:29
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
There's no Ubara without an Ubar and she would be only in charge because of him and if he lets her.
Now for being Tatrix or Commander of men, sure that happend but it wasn't common and if, then only honored at her Home Stone as long the men made her and let her be ... in the case of a female Magistrate, to speak judgement as the men wished, as she was told ? and not because of what she wanted to do ? Now you can of course say, that even a male Magistrate could possibly be bribed or be forced to act as a toy in a game of men, but how long would that work ?
And where exactly do people draw the conclusion from that women can only do as men tell them to do?
I guess I'm not able to draw as conclusion from the books that all Free Women on Gor are somehow dependant ditzy blondes that can only follow the instructions of men.
If a woman can be the head of a fighting slave business, and can boss her private guards around to do this and that... (Jason trilogy) Then I don't see the difference with a female Magistrate ordering city-guards around to do this and that either.
Quote from: Conall DeCuir on 03. April 2013, 11:37:07
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:11:29
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
There's no Ubara without an Ubar and she would be only in charge because of him and if he lets her.
Now for being Tatrix or Commander of men, sure that happend but it wasn't common and if, then only honored at her Home Stone as long the men made her and let her be ... in the case of a female Magistrate, to speak judgement as the men wished, as she was told ? and not because of what she wanted to do ? Now you can of course say, that even a male Magistrate could possibly be bribed or be forced to act as a toy in a game of men, but how long would that work ?
And where exactly do people draw the conclusion from that women can only do as men tell them to do?
I guess I'm not able to draw as conclusion from the books that all Free Women on Gor are somehow dependant ditzy blondes that can only follow the instructions of men.
If a woman can be the head of a fighting slave business, and can boss her private guards around to do this and that... (Jason trilogy) Then I don't see the difference with a female Magistrate ordering city-guards around to do this and that either.
Conall DeCuir:
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:50:16
Quote from: Conall DeCuir on 03. April 2013, 11:37:07
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:11:29
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
There's no Ubara without an Ubar and she would be only in charge because of him and if he lets her.
Now for being Tatrix or Commander of men, sure that happend but it wasn't common and if, then only honored at her Home Stone as long the men made her and let her be ... in the case of a female Magistrate, to speak judgement as the men wished, as she was told ? and not because of what she wanted to do ? Now you can of course say, that even a male Magistrate could possibly be bribed or be forced to act as a toy in a game of men, but how long would that work ?
And where exactly do people draw the conclusion from that women can only do as men tell them to do?
I guess I'm not able to draw as conclusion from the books that all Free Women on Gor are somehow dependant ditzy blondes that can only follow the instructions of men.
If a woman can be the head of a fighting slave business, and can boss her private guards around to do this and that... (Jason trilogy) Then I don't see the difference with a female Magistrate ordering city-guards around to do this and that either.
She can own and manage every of her own business be it of caste or not, when she has the power and the coins to pay men and guards. Still for me there is a difference between owning and managing her own slave house or bakery or being put in charge of a position like magistrate.
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:50:16
Quote from: Conall DeCuir on 03. April 2013, 11:37:07
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:11:29
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
There's no Ubara without an Ubar and she would be only in charge because of him and if he lets her.
Now for being Tatrix or Commander of men, sure that happend but it wasn't common and if, then only honored at her Home Stone as long the men made her and let her be ... in the case of a female Magistrate, to speak judgement as the men wished, as she was told ? and not because of what she wanted to do ? Now you can of course say, that even a male Magistrate could possibly be bribed or be forced to act as a toy in a game of men, but how long would that work ?
And where exactly do people draw the conclusion from that women can only do as men tell them to do?
I guess I'm not able to draw as conclusion from the books that all Free Women on Gor are somehow dependant ditzy blondes that can only follow the instructions of men.
If a woman can be the head of a fighting slave business, and can boss her private guards around to do this and that... (Jason trilogy) Then I don't see the difference with a female Magistrate ordering city-guards around to do this and that either.
She can own and manage every of her own business be it of caste or not, when she has the power and the coins to pay men and guards. Still for me there is a difference between owning and managing her own slave house or bakery or being put in charge of a position like magistrate.
Violetta Daviau:
I think Gorean men are not ALL stupid, and neither all are suffering from false pride as to admit that a woman could be better suited for a rank than themselfes, and thus if they see a benefit in a woman having a position of rank, they will use that benefit. In the end it is not all men against all women either. It does not depend on if all men in homestone accept a woman in charge but if the men that see her as superior, or even smarter, better in politics, with better network and what not, are strong enough to make other men accept that ruling too.
An example might be a warrior caste leader who has absolutely no hand in dealing with mighty merchants but needs the coin for his fame bringing war plans - it could be well plausible that he protects a certain woman to be in charge, be it on level of Tatrix or administrator for certain affairs... why not?
Now if one of those "protectors" gets an itching cock... it becomes dangerous for her...
I guess the problem for SL Gor are only these:
There are too few men in comparison to women and even less willing to TAKE ranks at allThere are too few players in general that are willing or even only able to FILL a rank with roleplay. And that is a quite spanning problem - too many people hold ranks in a way of title hogging, they do not play the role really, ranging from Tavern owners that never move a finger for their tavern, over smiths who never hold a hammer, to administrators or even ubars who do jack shit as well... and some of them political roles are also just frustrating to play as when it comes to bestow consequences on "criminal" or else politically intrigued against players, those bow out if needed by the use of the drama hammer...
I think Gorean men are not ALL stupid, and neither all are suffering from false pride as to admit that a woman could be better suited for a rank than themselfes, and thus if they see a benefit in a woman having a position of rank, they will use that benefit. In the end it is not all men against all women either. It does not depend on if all men in homestone accept a woman in charge but if the men that see her as superior, or even smarter, better in politics, with better network and what not, are strong enough to make other men accept that ruling too.
An example might be a warrior caste leader who has absolutely no hand in dealing with mighty merchants but needs the coin for his fame bringing war plans - it could be well plausible that he protects a certain woman to be in charge, be it on level of Tatrix or administrator for certain affairs... why not?
Now if one of those "protectors" gets an itching cock... it becomes dangerous for her...
I guess the problem for SL Gor are only these:
There are too few men in comparison to women and even less willing to TAKE ranks at allThere are too few players in general that are willing or even only able to FILL a rank with roleplay. And that is a quite spanning problem - too many people hold ranks in a way of title hogging, they do not play the role really, ranging from Tavern owners that never move a finger for their tavern, over smiths who never hold a hammer, to administrators or even ubars who do jack shit as well... and some of them political roles are also just frustrating to play as when it comes to bestow consequences on "criminal" or else politically intrigued against players, those bow out if needed by the use of the drama hammer...
Aphris Myoo:
Quote from: Violetta Daviau on 03. April 2013, 12:16:51
Now if one of those "protectors" gets an itching cock... it becomes dangerous for her...
Thats why Angela Merkel does so well.
The UberGorean in RL Silvio the Horny called her "an unfuckable cow". no danger for itching there.
Quote from: Violetta Daviau on 03. April 2013, 12:16:51
Now if one of those "protectors" gets an itching cock... it becomes dangerous for her...
Thats why Angela Merkel does so well.
The UberGorean in RL Silvio the Horny called her "an unfuckable cow". no danger for itching there.
Rayah Marenwolf:
Well it is a position that you must be qualified for, and its true men are not stupid they will not blindly follow a silly free woman that knows not what she speaks about, there are very few free woman magistrates in gor, and only two I know of as merchant magistrates, you have to deal alot with laws and not many want to have to do that, its detailed, I think we need to use common sense, there are some things a free woman would not be allowed to do as magistrate, and she knows her place, free men allow her to be magistrate, and it takes many gorean years to gain the respect in gor of the men to be heard, other wise you are dismissed easily, it is hard to be a free woman taken seriously in gor , you some how have to prove yourself. and yes there are many free woman in gor and many free men, but there are not many magistrates or merchant magistrates, Mercy was the first one I had seen, and inspired me to pursue the merchant laws, I think its an interesting role play, but very hard to play and not abuse the power where men feel you are not btb I think...I do agree with conall , women can not be as decisive as men, for example killing a man, a praetor a free man would feel no remorse or second guess himself when he Impales a man, where as I would ......so I woudl refrain from any treason trials of a free man, but I have done of free woman, even though its role play, its still hard to do such, I had a friend magistrate who had to sentence a pregnant free woman to death, and even until today he feels bad about it and hes a free man, I do not think I could of done it.....but anyway its a hard role play and not many want to do it, I do beleive its btb but common sense needs to be used while doing it, not arrogance or trying to be superiour over the free man
Well it is a position that you must be qualified for, and its true men are not stupid they will not blindly follow a silly free woman that knows not what she speaks about, there are very few free woman magistrates in gor, and only two I know of as merchant magistrates, you have to deal alot with laws and not many want to have to do that, its detailed, I think we need to use common sense, there are some things a free woman would not be allowed to do as magistrate, and she knows her place, free men allow her to be magistrate, and it takes many gorean years to gain the respect in gor of the men to be heard, other wise you are dismissed easily, it is hard to be a free woman taken seriously in gor , you some how have to prove yourself. and yes there are many free woman in gor and many free men, but there are not many magistrates or merchant magistrates, Mercy was the first one I had seen, and inspired me to pursue the merchant laws, I think its an interesting role play, but very hard to play and not abuse the power where men feel you are not btb I think...I do agree with conall , women can not be as decisive as men, for example killing a man, a praetor a free man would feel no remorse or second guess himself when he Impales a man, where as I would ......so I woudl refrain from any treason trials of a free man, but I have done of free woman, even though its role play, its still hard to do such, I had a friend magistrate who had to sentence a pregnant free woman to death, and even until today he feels bad about it and hes a free man, I do not think I could of done it.....but anyway its a hard role play and not many want to do it, I do beleive its btb but common sense needs to be used while doing it, not arrogance or trying to be superiour over the free man
Conall DeCuir:
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 03. April 2013, 16:41:49
Well it is a position that you must be qualified for, and its true men are not stupid they will not blindly follow a silly free woman that knows not what she speaks about, there are very few free woman magistrates in gor, and only two I know of as merchant magistrates, you have to deal alot with laws and not many want to have to do that, its detailed, I think we need to use common sense, there are some things a free woman would not be allowed to do as magistrate, and she knows her place, free men allow her to be magistrate, and it takes many gorean years to gain the respect in gor of the men to be heard, other wise you are dismissed easily, it is hard to be a free woman taken seriously in gor , you some how have to prove yourself. and yes there are many free woman in gor and many free men, but there are not many magistrates or merchant magistrates, Mercy was the first one I had seen, and inspired me to pursue the merchant laws, I think its an interesting role play, but very hard to play and not abuse the power where men feel you are not btb I think...I do agree with conall , women can not be as decisive as men, for example killing a man, a praetor a free man would feel no remorse or second guess himself when he Impales a man, where as I would ......so I woudl refrain from any treason trials of a free man, but I have done of free woman, even though its role play, its still hard to do such, I had a friend magistrate who had to sentence a pregnant free woman to death, and even until today he feels bad about it and hes a free man, I do not think I could of done it.....but anyway its a hard role play and not many want to do it, I do beleive its btb but common sense needs to be used while doing it, not arrogance or trying to be superiour over the free man
I do not understand the part i marked bold. If you think as a female magistrate that you cannot speak law as it is written in your laws, how can you be magistrate at all. For me a magistrate will judge and sentence. No magistrate has to impale anyone by himself nor has he to take care ... he speaks law, there are guards who will execute the sentence.
Imagine me right now looking at you, because if you are biased by gender while doing your work, how can you do a good job ?
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 03. April 2013, 16:41:49
Well it is a position that you must be qualified for, and its true men are not stupid they will not blindly follow a silly free woman that knows not what she speaks about, there are very few free woman magistrates in gor, and only two I know of as merchant magistrates, you have to deal alot with laws and not many want to have to do that, its detailed, I think we need to use common sense, there are some things a free woman would not be allowed to do as magistrate, and she knows her place, free men allow her to be magistrate, and it takes many gorean years to gain the respect in gor of the men to be heard, other wise you are dismissed easily, it is hard to be a free woman taken seriously in gor , you some how have to prove yourself. and yes there are many free woman in gor and many free men, but there are not many magistrates or merchant magistrates, Mercy was the first one I had seen, and inspired me to pursue the merchant laws, I think its an interesting role play, but very hard to play and not abuse the power where men feel you are not btb I think...I do agree with conall , women can not be as decisive as men, for example killing a man, a praetor a free man would feel no remorse or second guess himself when he Impales a man, where as I would ......so I woudl refrain from any treason trials of a free man, but I have done of free woman, even though its role play, its still hard to do such, I had a friend magistrate who had to sentence a pregnant free woman to death, and even until today he feels bad about it and hes a free man, I do not think I could of done it.....but anyway its a hard role play and not many want to do it, I do beleive its btb but common sense needs to be used while doing it, not arrogance or trying to be superiour over the free man
I do not understand the part i marked bold. If you think as a female magistrate that you cannot speak law as it is written in your laws, how can you be magistrate at all. For me a magistrate will judge and sentence. No magistrate has to impale anyone by himself nor has he to take care ... he speaks law, there are guards who will execute the sentence.
Imagine me right now looking at you, because if you are biased by gender while doing your work, how can you do a good job ?
Rayah Marenwolf:
[15:53] Rayah (rayah.marenwolf): I say he receive a trial....isnt there something more worse then death , slavery" whispers not wanting to see him killed before her although treachery was punishable with the spike and hanging "why do we not hear why he protests? questions
[15:55] Anarch Allegiere shook his head at Rayah: "The time for such civilities is not now... We are at war and under direct threat. It's men like him who threaten our very existence and looking at what they did to the village, I doubt they would spare us much generosities either. No, the Warriors are right. This man deserves to die," and most in the crowd seemed to agree. Anarch pulled his blade from it's sheath and brought it to the man's throat: "Got any last words, traitor?" - Anarch stared down at the man with indifference as the tip of his blade pressed against the man's neck.
Gorean Men are more decisive when it comes to death sentences I am saying, A woman is some what more emotional and will exhaust all avenues before having one killed, is what I meant by that, of course women even as magistrates does not make me for example cold hearted , or a man......
[15:53] Rayah (rayah.marenwolf): I say he receive a trial....isnt there something more worse then death , slavery" whispers not wanting to see him killed before her although treachery was punishable with the spike and hanging "why do we not hear why he protests? questions
[15:55] Anarch Allegiere shook his head at Rayah: "The time for such civilities is not now... We are at war and under direct threat. It's men like him who threaten our very existence and looking at what they did to the village, I doubt they would spare us much generosities either. No, the Warriors are right. This man deserves to die," and most in the crowd seemed to agree. Anarch pulled his blade from it's sheath and brought it to the man's throat: "Got any last words, traitor?" - Anarch stared down at the man with indifference as the tip of his blade pressed against the man's neck.
Gorean Men are more decisive when it comes to death sentences I am saying, A woman is some what more emotional and will exhaust all avenues before having one killed, is what I meant by that, of course women even as magistrates does not make me for example cold hearted , or a man......
BlitheBlue Resident:
As usual, I've been lurking but watching this thread with curiousity. There are two issues here, the first being playability and the second being Gorean ethos, and I don't think the latter should be dictated by the former.
It can be frustrating to have roleplay hamstrung by the lack of appropriate characters to fill a role, but in the end there are both OOC and IC ways around this. I had this very debate with some folks recently, and we found ways to move the roleplay.
The second issue of Gorean ethos should be the main consideration here. Just because it is not explicitly written in the books that there were not female magistrates does not mean the Gorean ethos would support it. After all, it is not explicitly written in the books that there were not rune priestesses or female members of the black caste, but we can draw a logical inference given the contextual clues of over thirty books in the series that these things would not have been supported by the Gorean ethos. Similarly, just because something happened in the books and is written about doesn't mean it is supported by the Gorean ethos either. The best example is the Tatrix of Tharna, which is a tale not included to demonstrate the power of women as rulers on Gor, but rather to demonstrate that in the Gorean view, women are inherently and biologically slaves to their emotions, needs and desires (something which is explicitly stated many places), and are therefore inherently corruptable. The condition under which free women are permitted by men to keep their freedom is the "unnatural" control or suppression of these things. If they are displayed, a woman is deemed "collarable" and the judge is, of course, men, who in the Gorean mindset naturally have the ability to control and suppress emotions, needs and desires.
Considering this, I don't think the Gorean ethos supports the idea of women acting as magistrates. This view might not be popular, but I think it's Gorean, which is the point, no? :)
As usual, I've been lurking but watching this thread with curiousity. There are two issues here, the first being playability and the second being Gorean ethos, and I don't think the latter should be dictated by the former.
It can be frustrating to have roleplay hamstrung by the lack of appropriate characters to fill a role, but in the end there are both OOC and IC ways around this. I had this very debate with some folks recently, and we found ways to move the roleplay.
The second issue of Gorean ethos should be the main consideration here. Just because it is not explicitly written in the books that there were not female magistrates does not mean the Gorean ethos would support it. After all, it is not explicitly written in the books that there were not rune priestesses or female members of the black caste, but we can draw a logical inference given the contextual clues of over thirty books in the series that these things would not have been supported by the Gorean ethos. Similarly, just because something happened in the books and is written about doesn't mean it is supported by the Gorean ethos either. The best example is the Tatrix of Tharna, which is a tale not included to demonstrate the power of women as rulers on Gor, but rather to demonstrate that in the Gorean view, women are inherently and biologically slaves to their emotions, needs and desires (something which is explicitly stated many places), and are therefore inherently corruptable. The condition under which free women are permitted by men to keep their freedom is the "unnatural" control or suppression of these things. If they are displayed, a woman is deemed "collarable" and the judge is, of course, men, who in the Gorean mindset naturally have the ability to control and suppress emotions, needs and desires.
Considering this, I don't think the Gorean ethos supports the idea of women acting as magistrates. This view might not be popular, but I think it's Gorean, which is the point, no? :)
Junea Demonia:
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 03. April 2013, 18:13:32
[15:53] Rayah (rayah.marenwolf): I say he receive a trial....isnt there something more worse then death , slavery" whispers not wanting to see him killed before her although treachery was punishable with the spike and hanging "why do we not hear why he protests? questions
Gorean Men are more decisive when it comes to death sentences I am saying, A woman is some what more emotional and will exhaust all avenues before having one killed, is what I meant by that, of course women even as magistrates does not make me for example cold hearted , or a man......
I think you are dead wrong about that. If a gorean woman made it to the position of magistrate - she would be there for a reason. She would be expected to hand out appropriate sentences and not whisper and be hesitant to apply the law. If she was that hesitant - I do not see her lasting for one day.
I do not think gorean women in general are portrayed and timid about death and hurting people.
If you play the role like this - I believe that is a problem and your character would not be in that position for a long time - simply for IC reasons.
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 03. April 2013, 18:13:32
[15:53] Rayah (rayah.marenwolf): I say he receive a trial....isnt there something more worse then death , slavery" whispers not wanting to see him killed before her although treachery was punishable with the spike and hanging "why do we not hear why he protests? questions
Gorean Men are more decisive when it comes to death sentences I am saying, A woman is some what more emotional and will exhaust all avenues before having one killed, is what I meant by that, of course women even as magistrates does not make me for example cold hearted , or a man......
I think you are dead wrong about that. If a gorean woman made it to the position of magistrate - she would be there for a reason. She would be expected to hand out appropriate sentences and not whisper and be hesitant to apply the law. If she was that hesitant - I do not see her lasting for one day.
I do not think gorean women in general are portrayed and timid about death and hurting people.
If you play the role like this - I believe that is a problem and your character would not be in that position for a long time - simply for IC reasons.
Junea Demonia:
Quote from: BlitheBlue Resident on 03. April 2013, 18:38:48
Considering this, I don't think the Gorean ethos supports the idea of women acting as magistrates. This view might not be popular, but I think it's Gorean, which is the point, no? :)
It can be the point - does not have to be.
There are plenty of sims out there who stretch what is gorean for different reasons. If I go to a sim and the rules allow that rule - I am not questioning the way the play with throwing out book quotes. It is up to them to make their own rules.
If we discuss strictly if the role would have been possible in the books according to JN - that is a different story.
Quote from: BlitheBlue Resident on 03. April 2013, 18:38:48
Considering this, I don't think the Gorean ethos supports the idea of women acting as magistrates. This view might not be popular, but I think it's Gorean, which is the point, no? :)
It can be the point - does not have to be.
There are plenty of sims out there who stretch what is gorean for different reasons. If I go to a sim and the rules allow that rule - I am not questioning the way the play with throwing out book quotes. It is up to them to make their own rules.
If we discuss strictly if the role would have been possible in the books according to JN - that is a different story.
BlitheBlue Resident:
There are plenty of sims out there who stretch what is gorean for different reasons. If I go to a sim and the rules allow that rule - I am not questioning the way the play with throwing out book quotes. It is up to them to make their own rules.
If we discuss strictly if the role would have been possible in the books according to JN - that is a different story.
You're right, there are lots of applications for Gorean roleplay. Even Star Wars Gor (!) But I was referring to my earlier premise that Gorean roleplay should be guided by a depth of understanding of what is Gorean as portrayed in the books rather than playability issues. I'm book-thumperly like that. ;)
There are plenty of sims out there who stretch what is gorean for different reasons. If I go to a sim and the rules allow that rule - I am not questioning the way the play with throwing out book quotes. It is up to them to make their own rules.
If we discuss strictly if the role would have been possible in the books according to JN - that is a different story.
You're right, there are lots of applications for Gorean roleplay. Even Star Wars Gor (!) But I was referring to my earlier premise that Gorean roleplay should be guided by a depth of understanding of what is Gorean as portrayed in the books rather than playability issues. I'm book-thumperly like that. ;)
Rayah Marenwolf:
I play my character very strong, but the situation there was Anarch was Ubar and we were in a civil war, so, you have to use common sense, how much can I say? You really do not have much power in that time, I was given the respect to even speak, as it was up to the Ubar if he lives or dies, I could of been killed for speaking actually so it took alot of courage, a very difficult situation, but if it was a trial I would give the death sentence , but all would be heard before decision, I felt that citizen deserved a trial but the Ubar did not he was more decisive, being a gorean man , a red caste
I play my character very strong, but the situation there was Anarch was Ubar and we were in a civil war, so, you have to use common sense, how much can I say? You really do not have much power in that time, I was given the respect to even speak, as it was up to the Ubar if he lives or dies, I could of been killed for speaking actually so it took alot of courage, a very difficult situation, but if it was a trial I would give the death sentence , but all would be heard before decision, I felt that citizen deserved a trial but the Ubar did not he was more decisive, being a gorean man , a red caste
Raven:
The problem is that people keep applying Earth standards to the Gor books. Don't forget we are not talking about a modern society but a patriarchal, chauvanistic one which JN has said is diametrically opposed to the one we all live in. Gor was in many ways similar to Ancient Rome, with some Viking and Feudal Japan traditions thrown in. That and the books vs. SL Gor are very different on many points.
The problem is that people keep applying Earth standards to the Gor books. Don't forget we are not talking about a modern society but a patriarchal, chauvanistic one which JN has said is diametrically opposed to the one we all live in. Gor was in many ways similar to Ancient Rome, with some Viking and Feudal Japan traditions thrown in. That and the books vs. SL Gor are very different on many points.
Hope Dreier:
Lots of things going on here and I;m not going to deal with all of them. The key issue here is delegated authority, this exists at all levels of any society. Going to a very specific case let us examine the military of the world. In any military there are two kinds of leaders, one kind draws its authority from the state these are usually refereed to as Commissioned Officers- they have been commissioned by the State . Now usually there are not enough of these Commissioned Officers to do all the necessary duties, so they delegate some of their authority to others. These are called Non-commissioned Officers - their authority is derived from the authority of the Commissioned Officers to whom they are responsible.
Now let us examine the Magistrate, a Magistrate draws his or her authority directly from the State, in the person of the Ubar or from the City Council who approved his appointment. This authority is the direct authority of the State, not the individual so appointed, but the state. It is highly unlikely that a very senior scribe, such as would be appointed as magistrate, is going to be able to even defend him/herself against even a mediocre warrior, none the less that Magistrate acting within the scope of his/her duty is the one in charge. The issue is not that the Magistrate is personally more powerful than that warrior, but that the authority that is represented is the authority of the state, infinitely or at least overpoweringly stronger than any individual. Male or female the authority is that of the state.
Lots of things going on here and I;m not going to deal with all of them. The key issue here is delegated authority, this exists at all levels of any society. Going to a very specific case let us examine the military of the world. In any military there are two kinds of leaders, one kind draws its authority from the state these are usually refereed to as Commissioned Officers- they have been commissioned by the State . Now usually there are not enough of these Commissioned Officers to do all the necessary duties, so they delegate some of their authority to others. These are called Non-commissioned Officers - their authority is derived from the authority of the Commissioned Officers to whom they are responsible.
Now let us examine the Magistrate, a Magistrate draws his or her authority directly from the State, in the person of the Ubar or from the City Council who approved his appointment. This authority is the direct authority of the State, not the individual so appointed, but the state. It is highly unlikely that a very senior scribe, such as would be appointed as magistrate, is going to be able to even defend him/herself against even a mediocre warrior, none the less that Magistrate acting within the scope of his/her duty is the one in charge. The issue is not that the Magistrate is personally more powerful than that warrior, but that the authority that is represented is the authority of the state, infinitely or at least overpoweringly stronger than any individual. Male or female the authority is that of the state.
BlitheBlue Resident:
The issue is not that the Magistrate is personally more powerful than that warrior, but that the authority that is represented is the authority of the state, infinitely or at least overpoweringly stronger than any individual. Male or female the authority is that of the state.
The power being weilded is that of authority to make independent decisions regarding the legal status of others. Its this use of independent judgement, even if granted by the state, that makes it a position of power. They are entrusted to weild this power because they would make objective, impartial judgements. A woman, being inherently corruptable in the Gorean mindset, would be dangerous and inappropriate in this role because the power vested in her by the state could be easily manipulated by others or even her own base motivations whereas a man would have the innate ability to resist/surpress those things and more responsibly weild that power.
The issue is not that the Magistrate is personally more powerful than that warrior, but that the authority that is represented is the authority of the state, infinitely or at least overpoweringly stronger than any individual. Male or female the authority is that of the state.
The power being weilded is that of authority to make independent decisions regarding the legal status of others. Its this use of independent judgement, even if granted by the state, that makes it a position of power. They are entrusted to weild this power because they would make objective, impartial judgements. A woman, being inherently corruptable in the Gorean mindset, would be dangerous and inappropriate in this role because the power vested in her by the state could be easily manipulated by others or even her own base motivations whereas a man would have the innate ability to resist/surpress those things and more responsibly weild that power.
Clovisb Resident:
Quote from: BlitheBlue Resident on 04. April 2013, 02:32:22
A woman, being inherently corruptable in the Gorean mindset, would be dangerous and inappropriate in this role because the power vested in her by the state could be easily manipulated by others or even her own base motivations whereas a man would have the innate ability to resist/surpress those things and more responsibly weild that power.
Where do people get this from?
There are more examples in the books of gorean men being manipulated or cock-collared by women than the other way around...
Quote from: BlitheBlue Resident on 04. April 2013, 02:32:22
A woman, being inherently corruptable in the Gorean mindset, would be dangerous and inappropriate in this role because the power vested in her by the state could be easily manipulated by others or even her own base motivations whereas a man would have the innate ability to resist/surpress those things and more responsibly weild that power.
Where do people get this from?
There are more examples in the books of gorean men being manipulated or cock-collared by women than the other way around...
Mercy Riiser:
Quote from: Mercy Riiser on 02. April 2013, 19:46:29
I do think that certain roles can be more difficult for a woman to fill in Gor than for a man just given the basics of what Gor is all about. But except for certain roles like warriors and a few others I don't see why a FW can't take on almost any role in SL. Given the reality of how many more women there in SL than men I think there is just a practical side to what it takes to run a sim. Obviously, a FW might get more bosk crap than a FM might get for taking on certain roles but I'd rather have a capable FW rp'ing as Magistrate handling issues BTB than an incompetent and lousy man rp'er in that same role. Just saying..... :)
I think I still agree with myself! ;D
Quote from: Mercy Riiser on 02. April 2013, 19:46:29
I do think that certain roles can be more difficult for a woman to fill in Gor than for a man just given the basics of what Gor is all about. But except for certain roles like warriors and a few others I don't see why a FW can't take on almost any role in SL. Given the reality of how many more women there in SL than men I think there is just a practical side to what it takes to run a sim. Obviously, a FW might get more bosk crap than a FM might get for taking on certain roles but I'd rather have a capable FW rp'ing as Magistrate handling issues BTB than an incompetent and lousy man rp'er in that same role. Just saying..... :)
I think I still agree with myself! ;D
BlitheBlue Resident:
Where do people get this from?
There are more examples in the books of gorean men being manipulated or cock-collared by women than the other way around...
I didn't make it up, I promise ;)
Where do people get this from?
There are more examples in the books of gorean men being manipulated or cock-collared by women than the other way around...
I didn't make it up, I promise ;)
Junea Demonia:
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 03. April 2013, 21:05:56
I play my character very strong, but the situation there was Anarch was Ubar and we were in a civil war, so, you have to use common sense, how much can I say? You really do not have much power in that time, I was given the respect to even speak, as it was up to the Ubar if he lives or dies, I could of been killed for speaking actually so it took alot of courage, a very difficult situation, but if it was a trial I would give the death sentence , but all would be heard before decision, I felt that citizen deserved a trial but the Ubar did not he was more decisive, being a gorean man , a red caste
That sounds to me like a real clusterfuck of a situation. If there is a state of war and the Ubar makes such decisions - then there is no need for a magistrate. If the Ubar only uses you to do his bidding and he is the actual power behind the decisions - then he uses you (the magistrate) as some sort of pawn he can control easily. Nothing wrong with that IC situations - if that is what you were going for.
Also - why would you as the magistrate, obviously used to handing out sentences and in Gor also death sentences, silently whisper to safe some person's life who is guilty and the Ubar who has so much power over you obviously wants the guy dead? Its just a bit of a clusterfuck to be honest....
If I played a female magistrate - I would play her as fully conscious of the difficult situation she is in. She would make sure not to show any public weakness, she would be quicker to judge, more harsh, more knowledgable about the law - for the simple reason that she would have to put up that front in order to be taken seriously in her job. Of course, it does not have to be played like that - but I think that would be the most fun for me - and the most realistic. I doubt if anyone would ever see more of my magistrate girl then her eyes, actually - cold, calculating, merciless eyes :)
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 03. April 2013, 21:05:56
I play my character very strong, but the situation there was Anarch was Ubar and we were in a civil war, so, you have to use common sense, how much can I say? You really do not have much power in that time, I was given the respect to even speak, as it was up to the Ubar if he lives or dies, I could of been killed for speaking actually so it took alot of courage, a very difficult situation, but if it was a trial I would give the death sentence , but all would be heard before decision, I felt that citizen deserved a trial but the Ubar did not he was more decisive, being a gorean man , a red caste
That sounds to me like a real clusterfuck of a situation. If there is a state of war and the Ubar makes such decisions - then there is no need for a magistrate. If the Ubar only uses you to do his bidding and he is the actual power behind the decisions - then he uses you (the magistrate) as some sort of pawn he can control easily. Nothing wrong with that IC situations - if that is what you were going for.
Also - why would you as the magistrate, obviously used to handing out sentences and in Gor also death sentences, silently whisper to safe some person's life who is guilty and the Ubar who has so much power over you obviously wants the guy dead? Its just a bit of a clusterfuck to be honest....
If I played a female magistrate - I would play her as fully conscious of the difficult situation she is in. She would make sure not to show any public weakness, she would be quicker to judge, more harsh, more knowledgable about the law - for the simple reason that she would have to put up that front in order to be taken seriously in her job. Of course, it does not have to be played like that - but I think that would be the most fun for me - and the most realistic. I doubt if anyone would ever see more of my magistrate girl then her eyes, actually - cold, calculating, merciless eyes :)
Caranda Schreiner:
In the books? No. In SL? Unfortunately necessary because of the male/female avie imbalance.
In the books? No. In SL? Unfortunately necessary because of the male/female avie imbalance.
Rayah Marenwolf:
Someone said to me once, it is hard to maintain a strong and powerful monarch in gor as a free woman and still show some soft qualities that would be attractive to the gorean male, to know her place, its a hard role to play, i can not show merciless eyes or be crual, I need to be with honour, loyalty and integrity and to show respect to the gorean free man......but in the end im still a woman , I am senstive, I cannot be a sterotype of the books, and even with pride I would admit I need a free man, that is why even as magistrate I am a ward, becasue the truth is in gor the free woman is nothing without the sword of the free man to keep her free......as Mercy said a hard role to play, that not many take upon themselves
Someone said to me once, it is hard to maintain a strong and powerful monarch in gor as a free woman and still show some soft qualities that would be attractive to the gorean male, to know her place, its a hard role to play, i can not show merciless eyes or be crual, I need to be with honour, loyalty and integrity and to show respect to the gorean free man......but in the end im still a woman , I am senstive, I cannot be a sterotype of the books, and even with pride I would admit I need a free man, that is why even as magistrate I am a ward, becasue the truth is in gor the free woman is nothing without the sword of the free man to keep her free......as Mercy said a hard role to play, that not many take upon themselves
Junea Demonia:
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 04. April 2013, 21:58:26
See a magistrate of kaelus said to me, it is hard to maintain a strong and powerful monarch in gor as a free woman and still show some soft qualities that would be attractive to the gorean male, to know her place, its a hard role to play, i can not show merciless eyes or be crual, I need to be with honour, loyalty and integrity and to show respect to the gorean free man......but in the end im still a woman , I am senstive, I cannot be a sterotype of the books, and even with pride I would admit I need a free man, that is why even as magistrate I am a ward, becasue the truth is in gor the free woman is nothing without the sword of the free man to keep her free......as Mercy said a hard role to play, that not many take upon themselves
If your character wants to be attractive to "the gorean male" - she is slave material. If you want to be pretty, feminine, attractive, soft, for a man, you best make sure that is your FC and you do it behind closed doors. Maybe do some research on gorean free women and their desire to be attractive to men - and how that is regarded in the gorean world?
If you insist so much on "still being a woman" and having to "respect" the gorean man in all circumstances - then how could you possibly pass judgement over a gorean man. By that logic, you make your own role implausible.
Sure - you can need a man in your life. Find a free companion. But that would have nothing to do with your profession as magistrate. And gorean fw who "need" a man....goes back to wanting to be attractive and all to men...dangerous territory for a free woman.
I don't know - I just do not see a gorean free woman in such a position as worried about appearing attractive, soft, pretty or feminine to the male world. I believe when she does her job those things would have to take a serious backseat or she would not be in that position for very long.
Even in our feminist world - as a female leader one often still has to be extra tough, extra strong, extra decisive, extra smart - to get the same respect a male leader gets. In the gorean world that would be true 100 times over.
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 04. April 2013, 21:58:26
See a magistrate of kaelus said to me, it is hard to maintain a strong and powerful monarch in gor as a free woman and still show some soft qualities that would be attractive to the gorean male, to know her place, its a hard role to play, i can not show merciless eyes or be crual, I need to be with honour, loyalty and integrity and to show respect to the gorean free man......but in the end im still a woman , I am senstive, I cannot be a sterotype of the books, and even with pride I would admit I need a free man, that is why even as magistrate I am a ward, becasue the truth is in gor the free woman is nothing without the sword of the free man to keep her free......as Mercy said a hard role to play, that not many take upon themselves
If your character wants to be attractive to "the gorean male" - she is slave material. If you want to be pretty, feminine, attractive, soft, for a man, you best make sure that is your FC and you do it behind closed doors. Maybe do some research on gorean free women and their desire to be attractive to men - and how that is regarded in the gorean world?
If you insist so much on "still being a woman" and having to "respect" the gorean man in all circumstances - then how could you possibly pass judgement over a gorean man. By that logic, you make your own role implausible.
Sure - you can need a man in your life. Find a free companion. But that would have nothing to do with your profession as magistrate. And gorean fw who "need" a man....goes back to wanting to be attractive and all to men...dangerous territory for a free woman.
I don't know - I just do not see a gorean free woman in such a position as worried about appearing attractive, soft, pretty or feminine to the male world. I believe when she does her job those things would have to take a serious backseat or she would not be in that position for very long.
Even in our feminist world - as a female leader one often still has to be extra tough, extra strong, extra decisive, extra smart - to get the same respect a male leader gets. In the gorean world that would be true 100 times over.
Meri Slade:
I would see a female Magistrate as a "Judge Judy" type personality. Tough, blunt, strongly opinionated. She can still be a companion or even a loving, soft woman behind the scenes, but in that position she'd have to work harder at being tougher, and even more prepared to prove that she can hand down the harder sentences than men are. She'd have that much to prove, constantly.
I would see a female Magistrate as a "Judge Judy" type personality. Tough, blunt, strongly opinionated. She can still be a companion or even a loving, soft woman behind the scenes, but in that position she'd have to work harder at being tougher, and even more prepared to prove that she can hand down the harder sentences than men are. She'd have that much to prove, constantly.
Meri Slade:
Quote from: Caranda Schreiner on 04. April 2013, 09:55:01
In the books? No. In SL? Unfortunately necessary because of the male/female avie imbalance.
And...this. Which supports my first post.
Quote from: Caranda Schreiner on 04. April 2013, 09:55:01
In the books? No. In SL? Unfortunately necessary because of the male/female avie imbalance.
And...this. Which supports my first post.
Junea Demonia:
Quote from: Meri Slade on 05. April 2013, 04:50:09
I would see a female Magistrate as a "Judge Judy" type personality. Tough, blunt, strongly opinionated. She can still be a companion or even a loving, soft woman behind the scenes, but in that position she'd have to work harder at being tougher, and even more prepared to prove that she can hand down the harder sentences than men are. She'd have that much to prove, constantly.
Yes, very much this!
I also do not see it as a contradiction to be one way on the job - and to be different privately. Don't most people do that? I know I am very different at work - and before I decided to be a "kept woman" and had quite a few people working for me - I very much "played the boss role" at work.
Quote from: Meri Slade on 05. April 2013, 04:50:09
I would see a female Magistrate as a "Judge Judy" type personality. Tough, blunt, strongly opinionated. She can still be a companion or even a loving, soft woman behind the scenes, but in that position she'd have to work harder at being tougher, and even more prepared to prove that she can hand down the harder sentences than men are. She'd have that much to prove, constantly.
Yes, very much this!
I also do not see it as a contradiction to be one way on the job - and to be different privately. Don't most people do that? I know I am very different at work - and before I decided to be a "kept woman" and had quite a few people working for me - I very much "played the boss role" at work.
Clovisb Resident:
So ... what the fuck were all these goreans doing who lived in cities ruled by Tatrices?
So ... what the fuck were all these goreans doing who lived in cities ruled by Tatrices?
Conall DeCuir:
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 05. April 2013, 10:11:48
So ... what the fuck were all these goreans doing who lived in cities ruled by Tatrices?
They lived a pretty normal live as most would not have been affected (except we are talking of tharna). I would imagine the red caste being more hollow, as the city would have been led not by men. I could also imagine that to proud red caste officers would have been removed from their positions and even their life as a tatrix would have to take to good care about her own neck and would be surrounded only by men who who would have pledged to her. Children born into such a city wouldnt know any difference and would take female leadership as normal and after 100 years all the taverns would have been replaced by tea houses.
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 05. April 2013, 10:11:48
So ... what the fuck were all these goreans doing who lived in cities ruled by Tatrices?
They lived a pretty normal live as most would not have been affected (except we are talking of tharna). I would imagine the red caste being more hollow, as the city would have been led not by men. I could also imagine that to proud red caste officers would have been removed from their positions and even their life as a tatrix would have to take to good care about her own neck and would be surrounded only by men who who would have pledged to her. Children born into such a city wouldnt know any difference and would take female leadership as normal and after 100 years all the taverns would have been replaced by tea houses.
BlitheBlue Resident:
The Tatrix of Tharna was a parable about corruption... political and cultural corruption resulting from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler. Our hapless heroes, Tarl and Kron, right these wrongs, reverse the order, cast FW from their walls and enslave the rest. The Tatrix remains in place during the revolt but she is placed beneath male authority behind the scenes. And they lived happily ever after ;P
The Tatrix of Tharna was a parable about corruption... political and cultural corruption resulting from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler. Our hapless heroes, Tarl and Kron, right these wrongs, reverse the order, cast FW from their walls and enslave the rest. The Tatrix remains in place during the revolt but she is placed beneath male authority behind the scenes. And they lived happily ever after ;P
Rayah Marenwolf:
The power of free women, of course, rests ultimately on the might of men.
. . .
Were it not for men, free women would be as powerless as slave girls.
Witness of Gor Book 26 Page 435
Being a magistrate would not mean I am able to control men, in the end I still have the threat of a collar, I am hired and given the job by men, and I better not mess up, I will resign to the fact possibly it is better for a man to be the HEAD or HIGH of the caste of scribes, as magistrates of the castes of scribes......the point is we have to be proficient in the laws and scrolls, but any way, I am not so concerned with titles, possibly HEADS of castes which is being discussed could be men that may seem much more gorean, for me titles are not what is important, the fisherman may have more knowledge, honour and values than the man that holds Ubar over his head...it is the way one carries themselves, their behaviour, their values that matters, and even a woman in a high position must always know how to act around gorean men, with respect.....dignity and pride
The power of free women, of course, rests ultimately on the might of men.
. . .
Were it not for men, free women would be as powerless as slave girls.
Witness of Gor Book 26 Page 435
Being a magistrate would not mean I am able to control men, in the end I still have the threat of a collar, I am hired and given the job by men, and I better not mess up, I will resign to the fact possibly it is better for a man to be the HEAD or HIGH of the caste of scribes, as magistrates of the castes of scribes......the point is we have to be proficient in the laws and scrolls, but any way, I am not so concerned with titles, possibly HEADS of castes which is being discussed could be men that may seem much more gorean, for me titles are not what is important, the fisherman may have more knowledge, honour and values than the man that holds Ubar over his head...it is the way one carries themselves, their behaviour, their values that matters, and even a woman in a high position must always know how to act around gorean men, with respect.....dignity and pride
Clovisb Resident:
Quote from: BlitheBlue Resident on 05. April 2013, 15:55:26
The Tatrix of Tharna was a parable about corruption... political and cultural corruption resulting from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler. Our hapless heroes, Tarl and Kron, right these wrongs, reverse the order, cast FW from their walls and enslave the rest. The Tatrix remains in place during the revolt but she is placed beneath male authority behind the scenes. And they lived happily ever after ;P
What about the Tatrices and sole Ubara's of Corcyrus, Olni and even Ar? Even in post-revolt Tharna where the overturning of gynocracy was done rather violently and by the enslavement of essentially all women, the former Tatrix, Lara, remained as city administrator (an elected position) until she abdicated of her own free will. It would be unfair to ignore the fact that prior to the Tarl's encounter with these women, the history told speaks of many years of their rule.
Women have a tendency of exaggurating the submissiveness and dependance upon men in Gor. That is what I suspect is somewhat of a personal bias of how some women and presumably some men would like to experience Gor. But sorry... It's simply not correct and it is as said above, unfair to simply denote every single example of Free Women with power and authority as an exception when there is a multitude of examples.
Quote from: BlitheBlue Resident on 05. April 2013, 15:55:26
The Tatrix of Tharna was a parable about corruption... political and cultural corruption resulting from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler. Our hapless heroes, Tarl and Kron, right these wrongs, reverse the order, cast FW from their walls and enslave the rest. The Tatrix remains in place during the revolt but she is placed beneath male authority behind the scenes. And they lived happily ever after ;P
What about the Tatrices and sole Ubara's of Corcyrus, Olni and even Ar? Even in post-revolt Tharna where the overturning of gynocracy was done rather violently and by the enslavement of essentially all women, the former Tatrix, Lara, remained as city administrator (an elected position) until she abdicated of her own free will. It would be unfair to ignore the fact that prior to the Tarl's encounter with these women, the history told speaks of many years of their rule.
Women have a tendency of exaggurating the submissiveness and dependance upon men in Gor. That is what I suspect is somewhat of a personal bias of how some women and presumably some men would like to experience Gor. But sorry... It's simply not correct and it is as said above, unfair to simply denote every single example of Free Women with power and authority as an exception when there is a multitude of examples.
BlitheBlue Resident:
Women have a tendency of exaggurating the submissiveness and dependance upon men in Gor. That is what I suspect is somewhat of a personal bias of how some women and presumably some men would like to experience Gor.
You had a good retort in the works until this bit, which discounts the possibility that perhaps there are differences of interpretation of the philosophical tenets Norman presents, and that it might have less to do with how we would like to experience roleplay and more with what intellectual schema it's placed in. Some people think about this stuff rather than just make it up :)
Women have a tendency of exaggurating the submissiveness and dependance upon men in Gor. That is what I suspect is somewhat of a personal bias of how some women and presumably some men would like to experience Gor.
You had a good retort in the works until this bit, which discounts the possibility that perhaps there are differences of interpretation of the philosophical tenets Norman presents, and that it might have less to do with how we would like to experience roleplay and more with what intellectual schema it's placed in. Some people think about this stuff rather than just make it up :)
Aphris Myoo:
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 05. April 2013, 15:59:27
The power of free women, of course, rests ultimately on the might of men.
. . .
Were it not for men, free women would be as powerless as slave girls.
Witness of Gor Book 26 Page 435
This can be vey well true. And it counts for Earth too in the not even that far past.
But men never form one front against women. And a smart Tatrix can play Divide et Impera. Giving favors to one, then to another. Manipulating men who want come to power through her. Interesting in this way is how Catherine the Great came to power and used her lovers to rule after that.
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 05. April 2013, 15:59:27
The power of free women, of course, rests ultimately on the might of men.
. . .
Were it not for men, free women would be as powerless as slave girls.
Witness of Gor Book 26 Page 435
This can be vey well true. And it counts for Earth too in the not even that far past.
But men never form one front against women. And a smart Tatrix can play Divide et Impera. Giving favors to one, then to another. Manipulating men who want come to power through her. Interesting in this way is how Catherine the Great came to power and used her lovers to rule after that.
Rayah Marenwolf:
I will say though Praetor should be a free man's position...isnt that a red caste, he would take the place of the admin if hes missing?
I will say though Praetor should be a free man's position...isnt that a red caste, he would take the place of the admin if hes missing?
Badeddy resident:
In a previous post I said a women ending up magistrate would deserve a medal and while I agree its absolutely not impossible it happen, I still believe in what I said but I would also add, in a real setting, anyone who manage to become magistrate would deserve that medal.
Its not the everyday job. For anyone in that line of work we can assume its the achievement of a life time to become magistrate. I can't even start to imagine how competitive it must be to access this position and stay there. Surely, a lot of very qualified people never make it that high in the legal food chain cause we don't need very many Magistrate.
Now for a women to get it. Sure, why not but I think she will be one Hell of a women. I think she should be very well positioned and already influent and able to play her card very well. Even on Earth there is those women who manage to get top position in domains where we usually see only men but often it was harder for her to get there than it would have been if she was a man.
In Gor, if you are one of those who get to see all those applications from new people in the city. Its amazing to see how many apply for Magistrate. Its probably 1 out of every 3-4 scribe application. Whatever they are women or men, I think very few who give the kind of RP that reflect the character a magistrate should be (IMO). So if a women does it well, great, lets give her the title so se can have a good magistrate for a change and lets not turn her away just because she is a women.
In a previous post I said a women ending up magistrate would deserve a medal and while I agree its absolutely not impossible it happen, I still believe in what I said but I would also add, in a real setting, anyone who manage to become magistrate would deserve that medal.
Its not the everyday job. For anyone in that line of work we can assume its the achievement of a life time to become magistrate. I can't even start to imagine how competitive it must be to access this position and stay there. Surely, a lot of very qualified people never make it that high in the legal food chain cause we don't need very many Magistrate.
Now for a women to get it. Sure, why not but I think she will be one Hell of a women. I think she should be very well positioned and already influent and able to play her card very well. Even on Earth there is those women who manage to get top position in domains where we usually see only men but often it was harder for her to get there than it would have been if she was a man.
In Gor, if you are one of those who get to see all those applications from new people in the city. Its amazing to see how many apply for Magistrate. Its probably 1 out of every 3-4 scribe application. Whatever they are women or men, I think very few who give the kind of RP that reflect the character a magistrate should be (IMO). So if a women does it well, great, lets give her the title so se can have a good magistrate for a change and lets not turn her away just because she is a women.
Michelline Raymond:
I play a Magistrate in Gor. I am known as Rosaline Spiritor. I have read how some see women as 'emotional' and may not be able to handle the decision of putting a person to death. Rosaline is NOT that woman.
You see, to impale a person for committing a capital crime, is what the law requires. If a person breaks the laws, then consequences follow. Why would anyone pity a person who desecrates the symbolism of the Home Stone? Why would any Magistrate feel for a person who dishonors the Home Stone they swore to protect and defend? That's like saying it's alright to spit on/burn/desecrate the American flag. The same emotions Americans feel when our flag is tarnished, is amplified by a Gorean when it comes to their city.
Rosaline has impaled outlaws without blinking. Rosaline has tried collaring a few women for being an enemy of the city or a down right slut and men would be enraged with her decision (The sim owner would then step in OOCly and overturn the ruling after telling me OOCly that I need to be 'nicer'). Sorry, we know the rules, we know the dangers, we know the books (well, some of us do).
There really weren't 'courtroom trials'. In Explorers', a 'trial' was held right there on the street and sentences immediately handed down and enforced.
As far as being 'demure and soft' to catch a man's attention...no thanks. As strong as Rosaline is, she would need a man to be stronger than her or else he'd just be another trinket she plays with. She has Companioned some of the hardest of men, argued with them, felt the slave ring or a backhand...but she still remains Rosaline. She does sort of begin to watch her words and tone with them, to avoid the punishment she knows she'll get, but still maintains her ground. In the end though, she knows her Companion's word and decision is final.
Gorean men do like a bit of fire in their woman. Some love watching her get riled up and get a few laughs from the insults she comes up with. Rosaline is both loved and hated. Those who love her, love her strength and no nonsense attitude. Those who hate her, hate her mainly because she isn't a free woman who bows down easily. She has felt the collar a few times...but always regains her feet because men see her intelligence and usefulness as a Free Woman rather than a slave.
So, should a woman be a Magistrate in Gor? Yes. When you come across those men too weak to be men, sometimes you need that woman to show them how to grow a pair.
I play a Magistrate in Gor. I am known as Rosaline Spiritor. I have read how some see women as 'emotional' and may not be able to handle the decision of putting a person to death. Rosaline is NOT that woman.
You see, to impale a person for committing a capital crime, is what the law requires. If a person breaks the laws, then consequences follow. Why would anyone pity a person who desecrates the symbolism of the Home Stone? Why would any Magistrate feel for a person who dishonors the Home Stone they swore to protect and defend? That's like saying it's alright to spit on/burn/desecrate the American flag. The same emotions Americans feel when our flag is tarnished, is amplified by a Gorean when it comes to their city.
Rosaline has impaled outlaws without blinking. Rosaline has tried collaring a few women for being an enemy of the city or a down right slut and men would be enraged with her decision (The sim owner would then step in OOCly and overturn the ruling after telling me OOCly that I need to be 'nicer'). Sorry, we know the rules, we know the dangers, we know the books (well, some of us do).
There really weren't 'courtroom trials'. In Explorers', a 'trial' was held right there on the street and sentences immediately handed down and enforced.
As far as being 'demure and soft' to catch a man's attention...no thanks. As strong as Rosaline is, she would need a man to be stronger than her or else he'd just be another trinket she plays with. She has Companioned some of the hardest of men, argued with them, felt the slave ring or a backhand...but she still remains Rosaline. She does sort of begin to watch her words and tone with them, to avoid the punishment she knows she'll get, but still maintains her ground. In the end though, she knows her Companion's word and decision is final.
Gorean men do like a bit of fire in their woman. Some love watching her get riled up and get a few laughs from the insults she comes up with. Rosaline is both loved and hated. Those who love her, love her strength and no nonsense attitude. Those who hate her, hate her mainly because she isn't a free woman who bows down easily. She has felt the collar a few times...but always regains her feet because men see her intelligence and usefulness as a Free Woman rather than a slave.
So, should a woman be a Magistrate in Gor? Yes. When you come across those men too weak to be men, sometimes you need that woman to show them how to grow a pair.
Bastet Nyoki:
Quote from: Michelline Raymond on 08. April 2013, 09:38:11
I play a Magistrate in Gor. I am known as Rosaline Spiritor. I have read how some see women as 'emotional' and may not be able to handle the decision of putting a person to death. Rosaline is NOT that woman.
You see, to impale a person for committing a capital crime, is what the law requires. If a person breaks the laws, then consequences follow. Why would anyone pity a person who desecrates the symbolism of the Home Stone? Why would any Magistrate feel for a person who dishonors the Home Stone they swore to protect and defend? That's like saying it's alright to spit on/burn/desecrate the American flag. The same emotions Americans feel when our flag is tarnished, is amplified by a Gorean when it comes to their city.
Rosaline has impaled outlaws without blinking. Rosaline has tried collaring a few women for being an enemy of the city or a down right slut and men would be enraged with her decision (The sim owner would then step in OOCly and overturn the ruling after telling me OOCly that I need to be 'nicer'). Sorry, we know the rules, we know the dangers, we know the books (well, some of us do).
There really weren't 'courtroom trials'. In Explorers', a 'trial' was held right there on the street and sentences immediately handed down and enforced.
As far as being 'demure and soft' to catch a man's attention...no thanks. As strong as Rosaline is, she would need a man to be stronger than her or else he'd just be another trinket she plays with. She has Companioned some of the hardest of men, argued with them, felt the slave ring or a backhand...but she still remains Rosaline. She does sort of begin to watch her words and tone with them, to avoid the punishment she knows she'll get, but still maintains her ground. In the end though, she knows her Companion's word and decision is final.
Gorean men do like a bit of fire in their woman. Some love watching her get riled up and get a few laughs from the insults she comes up with. Rosaline is both loved and hated. Those who love her, love her strength and no nonsense attitude. Those who hate her, hate her mainly because she isn't a free woman who bows down easily. She has felt the collar a few times...but always regains her feet because men see her intelligence and usefulness as a Free Woman rather than a slave.
So, should a woman be a Magistrate in Gor? Yes. When you come across those men too weak to be men, sometimes you need that woman to show them how to grow a pair.
I'd really love to meet your character :)
Quote from: Michelline Raymond on 08. April 2013, 09:38:11
I play a Magistrate in Gor. I am known as Rosaline Spiritor. I have read how some see women as 'emotional' and may not be able to handle the decision of putting a person to death. Rosaline is NOT that woman.
You see, to impale a person for committing a capital crime, is what the law requires. If a person breaks the laws, then consequences follow. Why would anyone pity a person who desecrates the symbolism of the Home Stone? Why would any Magistrate feel for a person who dishonors the Home Stone they swore to protect and defend? That's like saying it's alright to spit on/burn/desecrate the American flag. The same emotions Americans feel when our flag is tarnished, is amplified by a Gorean when it comes to their city.
Rosaline has impaled outlaws without blinking. Rosaline has tried collaring a few women for being an enemy of the city or a down right slut and men would be enraged with her decision (The sim owner would then step in OOCly and overturn the ruling after telling me OOCly that I need to be 'nicer'). Sorry, we know the rules, we know the dangers, we know the books (well, some of us do).
There really weren't 'courtroom trials'. In Explorers', a 'trial' was held right there on the street and sentences immediately handed down and enforced.
As far as being 'demure and soft' to catch a man's attention...no thanks. As strong as Rosaline is, she would need a man to be stronger than her or else he'd just be another trinket she plays with. She has Companioned some of the hardest of men, argued with them, felt the slave ring or a backhand...but she still remains Rosaline. She does sort of begin to watch her words and tone with them, to avoid the punishment she knows she'll get, but still maintains her ground. In the end though, she knows her Companion's word and decision is final.
Gorean men do like a bit of fire in their woman. Some love watching her get riled up and get a few laughs from the insults she comes up with. Rosaline is both loved and hated. Those who love her, love her strength and no nonsense attitude. Those who hate her, hate her mainly because she isn't a free woman who bows down easily. She has felt the collar a few times...but always regains her feet because men see her intelligence and usefulness as a Free Woman rather than a slave.
So, should a woman be a Magistrate in Gor? Yes. When you come across those men too weak to be men, sometimes you need that woman to show them how to grow a pair.
I'd really love to meet your character :)
Raven:
Speaking of female Magistrates--RIP Margaret Thatcher.
Speaking of female Magistrates--RIP Margaret Thatcher.
Mercy Riiser:
She might better be viewed as a Tatrix...!
She might better be viewed as a Tatrix...!
Michelline Raymond:
Bastet, Rosaline can be found in Voltai Vikel as a Praetor...come on by!
Bastet, Rosaline can be found in Voltai Vikel as a Praetor...come on by!
Clovisb Resident:
The proper title for a female Praetor should probably be Praetrix
The proper title for a female Praetor should probably be Praetrix
Michelline Raymond:
Quote from: Mercy Riiser on 08. April 2013, 18:18:24
She might better be viewed as a Tatrix...!
LOL Mercy, is that to me?
Quote from: Mercy Riiser on 08. April 2013, 18:18:24
She might better be viewed as a Tatrix...!
LOL Mercy, is that to me?
Druhsus:
Quote from: Michelline Raymond on 08. April 2013, 23:49:04
Bastet, Rosaline can be found in Voltai Vikel as a Praetor...come on by!
Love your sim, even when roller coaster type tarn ride... from 3000 meters to 500 in seconds! NICE
Quote from: Michelline Raymond on 08. April 2013, 23:49:04
Bastet, Rosaline can be found in Voltai Vikel as a Praetor...come on by!
Love your sim, even when roller coaster type tarn ride... from 3000 meters to 500 in seconds! NICE
Triad Fallen:
Quote from: Raven on 08. April 2013, 15:31:19
Speaking of female Magistrates--RIP Margaret Thatcher.
May she rot in hell ;D
Quote from: Raven on 08. April 2013, 15:31:19
Speaking of female Magistrates--RIP Margaret Thatcher.
May she rot in hell ;D
Mercy Riiser:
Quote from: Michelline Raymond on 09. April 2013, 00:24:59
Quote from: Mercy Riiser on 08. April 2013, 18:18:24
She might better be viewed as a Tatrix...!
LOL Mercy, is that to me?
No...that was for the Thatcher! Our paths will cross in VV soon. :)
Quote from: Michelline Raymond on 09. April 2013, 00:24:59
Quote from: Mercy Riiser on 08. April 2013, 18:18:24
She might better be viewed as a Tatrix...!
LOL Mercy, is that to me?
No...that was for the Thatcher! Our paths will cross in VV soon. :)
Aphris Myoo:
Quote from: Triad Fallen on 09. April 2013, 03:14:02
Quote from: Raven on 08. April 2013, 15:31:19
Speaking of female Magistrates--RIP Margaret Thatcher.
May she rot in hell ;D
With an Argentinian as Pope she probably will. But without her, probably 50% of Brits would live in the hell of poverty and unemployment.
Quote from: Triad Fallen on 09. April 2013, 03:14:02
Quote from: Raven on 08. April 2013, 15:31:19
Speaking of female Magistrates--RIP Margaret Thatcher.
May she rot in hell ;D
With an Argentinian as Pope she probably will. But without her, probably 50% of Brits would live in the hell of poverty and unemployment.
Reverend Messmer:
I think female can't have any position of authority on Gor. It is again the logic of psychoevolutionisme. It may append but it is due social dysfonction... Female are by nature slave of men, not there master.
If the question is can female be magistrate on sl gor? Yes. Even in BTB sim, you need to adapt for making the RP possible. An example, you rarely see panthers enslaved or purely impaled after a failling raid. If you stick to the law being outlaws they should be kill or keep as slave.
I think female can't have any position of authority on Gor. It is again the logic of psychoevolutionisme. It may append but it is due social dysfonction... Female are by nature slave of men, not there master.
If the question is can female be magistrate on sl gor? Yes. Even in BTB sim, you need to adapt for making the RP possible. An example, you rarely see panthers enslaved or purely impaled after a failling raid. If you stick to the law being outlaws they should be kill or keep as slave.
Syndel Daviau:
Wow, Reverend... Arwan must be in trouble if you are the one who resolves their matters of law.
Are you serious? Women cannot have position of authority?
Ubaras, for instance are, in true, the SECOND to their Ubars. Let me educate a moment if you'd allow me.
"The throne of the Ubara of Ar," he said, "is empty."
They looked at one another.
"Thank you," she said, "Ubar."
"I will have all arrangements made," he said, "for your investiture as Ubara of Ar."
His men gasped. My men could not speak. I, too, was struck with silence.
To be Ubara of Ar was the most glorious thing to which a woman might aspire. It meant that she would be the richest and most powerful woman on Gor, that armies and navies, and tarn cavalries, could move upon her very word, that the taxes of an empire the wealthiest on Gor could be laid at her feet, that the most precious of gems and jewelries might be hers, that she would be the most envied woman on the planet.
Hunters of Gor
Wow, Reverend... Arwan must be in trouble if you are the one who resolves their matters of law.
Are you serious? Women cannot have position of authority?
Ubaras, for instance are, in true, the SECOND to their Ubars. Let me educate a moment if you'd allow me.
"The throne of the Ubara of Ar," he said, "is empty."
They looked at one another.
"Thank you," she said, "Ubar."
"I will have all arrangements made," he said, "for your investiture as Ubara of Ar."
His men gasped. My men could not speak. I, too, was struck with silence.
To be Ubara of Ar was the most glorious thing to which a woman might aspire. It meant that she would be the richest and most powerful woman on Gor, that armies and navies, and tarn cavalries, could move upon her very word, that the taxes of an empire the wealthiest on Gor could be laid at her feet, that the most precious of gems and jewelries might be hers, that she would be the most envied woman on the planet.
Hunters of Gor
Reverend Messmer:
Quote from: Syndel Daviau on 04. October 2013, 17:59:02
Wow, Reverend... Arwan must be in trouble if you are the one who resolves their matters of law.
Are you serious? Women cannot have position of authority?
Ubaras, for instance are, in true, the SECOND to their Ubars. Let me educate a moment if you'd allow me.
"The throne of the Ubara of Ar," he said, "is empty."
They looked at one another.
"Thank you," she said, "Ubar."
"I will have all arrangements made," he said, "for your investiture as Ubara of Ar."
His men gasped. My men could not speak. I, too, was struck with silence.
To be Ubara of Ar was the most glorious thing to which a woman might aspire. It meant that she would be the richest and most powerful woman on Gor, that armies and navies, and tarn cavalries, could move upon her very word, that the taxes of an empire the wealthiest on Gor could be laid at her feet, that the most precious of gems and jewelries might be hers, that she would be the most envied woman on the planet.
Hunters of Gor
Gor is writen as a phalocratic world keep in mind.
Except for Tharna and the Tatrix, you don't have any city directed by female for a long time. Even the tatrix recognize the supremacy of man in ordinary life in Outlaw of Gor at the end. She state that female should find a free companion or end in slavery.
Ok, female can have a shop, can sell good... But it is not position of high autority.
Ubara are the free companion of the Ubar. You will do what she say because the will of the ubara is backed by the autority of the ubar. He own the power, she just use it.
We also have no quotation that state female as active member of the high council in any normal city.
So my conclusion turn right. Female as Magistrate seem not possible on Gor like other high ranking position except ubara or tatrix. It is just in contradicton with the idea of psychoevolutionisme.
On Second Life, it is different. Female caracter got more freedom. I never stated female can't act as magistrate on SL Gor. I just state it is an adaptation. And I don't state that is wrong to do so.
When you read in the line. You see that female are clearly not equal to men on Gor. They are slave of men by nature. The fact some stay free is because it is conveniant.
Quote from: Syndel Daviau on 04. October 2013, 17:59:02
Wow, Reverend... Arwan must be in trouble if you are the one who resolves their matters of law.
Are you serious? Women cannot have position of authority?
Ubaras, for instance are, in true, the SECOND to their Ubars. Let me educate a moment if you'd allow me.
"The throne of the Ubara of Ar," he said, "is empty."
They looked at one another.
"Thank you," she said, "Ubar."
"I will have all arrangements made," he said, "for your investiture as Ubara of Ar."
His men gasped. My men could not speak. I, too, was struck with silence.
To be Ubara of Ar was the most glorious thing to which a woman might aspire. It meant that she would be the richest and most powerful woman on Gor, that armies and navies, and tarn cavalries, could move upon her very word, that the taxes of an empire the wealthiest on Gor could be laid at her feet, that the most precious of gems and jewelries might be hers, that she would be the most envied woman on the planet.
Hunters of Gor
Gor is writen as a phalocratic world keep in mind.
Except for Tharna and the Tatrix, you don't have any city directed by female for a long time. Even the tatrix recognize the supremacy of man in ordinary life in Outlaw of Gor at the end. She state that female should find a free companion or end in slavery.
Ok, female can have a shop, can sell good... But it is not position of high autority.
Ubara are the free companion of the Ubar. You will do what she say because the will of the ubara is backed by the autority of the ubar. He own the power, she just use it.
We also have no quotation that state female as active member of the high council in any normal city.
So my conclusion turn right. Female as Magistrate seem not possible on Gor like other high ranking position except ubara or tatrix. It is just in contradicton with the idea of psychoevolutionisme.
On Second Life, it is different. Female caracter got more freedom. I never stated female can't act as magistrate on SL Gor. I just state it is an adaptation. And I don't state that is wrong to do so.
When you read in the line. You see that female are clearly not equal to men on Gor. They are slave of men by nature. The fact some stay free is because it is conveniant.
Syndel Daviau:
Talena, daughter of Marlenus, was stand-alone Ubara of Ar in Witness of Gor, backed by the army of Cos.
Talena, daughter of Marlenus, was stand-alone Ubara of Ar in Witness of Gor, backed by the army of Cos.
Elle Couerblanc:
Quote from: Syndel Daviau on 04. October 2013, 19:24:25
Talena, daughter of Marlenus, was stand-alone Ubara of Ar in Witness of Gor, backed by the army of Cos.
Actually the conversation quoted was between Marlenus and Verna as he wanted her to return to Ar as his Companion. But yes, Talena was backed by the Cosians, for a good length of time it would seem too (what at least three books?) and purposely placed there by them. How I view her in this storyline was partly a true leader figure and partly a pawn for the Cosians to use to degrade the mighty Marlenus. Was she placed there by her own merit and ability to win the masses? Probably not but she knew how to get her way there by any means possible in my eyes. Kudos for her for manipulating the Cosians to her benefit. :)
I could see females as heads of castes but it would be a hard battle for her to achieve that spot; and one I would like to see with an IC progressive storyline into that role instead of the normal "welcome to your new gorean sim female role player and her is your key to the head of caste office". Probably more in the lower castes though than high castes too. But still I would think her "reign" would be tenuous at best and wraught with controversy. Definately some RP potential there if it's played within the spirt of the genre (the blatant sexism and misogynistic ways of some of the men in the culture) and the constant struggle a woman would face to be treated as a true leader.
Quote from: Syndel Daviau on 04. October 2013, 19:24:25
Talena, daughter of Marlenus, was stand-alone Ubara of Ar in Witness of Gor, backed by the army of Cos.
Actually the conversation quoted was between Marlenus and Verna as he wanted her to return to Ar as his Companion. But yes, Talena was backed by the Cosians, for a good length of time it would seem too (what at least three books?) and purposely placed there by them. How I view her in this storyline was partly a true leader figure and partly a pawn for the Cosians to use to degrade the mighty Marlenus. Was she placed there by her own merit and ability to win the masses? Probably not but she knew how to get her way there by any means possible in my eyes. Kudos for her for manipulating the Cosians to her benefit. :)
I could see females as heads of castes but it would be a hard battle for her to achieve that spot; and one I would like to see with an IC progressive storyline into that role instead of the normal "welcome to your new gorean sim female role player and her is your key to the head of caste office". Probably more in the lower castes though than high castes too. But still I would think her "reign" would be tenuous at best and wraught with controversy. Definately some RP potential there if it's played within the spirt of the genre (the blatant sexism and misogynistic ways of some of the men in the culture) and the constant struggle a woman would face to be treated as a true leader.
Syndel Daviau:
There's no relevance between who the conversation was. Could be between two children. The narrative about the power of the Ubara would remain the same. A woman in a leadership position. Which I was correcting the man who was saying there was no such thing.
Talena was in a position of power, presumed pawn or not. A Tatrix is another example of woman in position of power. Any Free Woman of High Caste is in a position of power upon her hired free men of low Caste, so on and so forth. It's all relative to situation. There's no ultimatums towards that. Globally the notion is that women are lesser but it's not always so, it depends very much on just who the woman is: life and death may be in her hands, after all.
Now I will stop derailing the thread! It's about magistrates haha!
There's no relevance between who the conversation was. Could be between two children. The narrative about the power of the Ubara would remain the same. A woman in a leadership position. Which I was correcting the man who was saying there was no such thing.
Talena was in a position of power, presumed pawn or not. A Tatrix is another example of woman in position of power. Any Free Woman of High Caste is in a position of power upon her hired free men of low Caste, so on and so forth. It's all relative to situation. There's no ultimatums towards that. Globally the notion is that women are lesser but it's not always so, it depends very much on just who the woman is: life and death may be in her hands, after all.
Now I will stop derailing the thread! It's about magistrates haha!
Elle Couerblanc:
@Syndel I was only saying who the conversation was between so others not as familiar with the books wouldn't take it as a reference to Talena. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to correct you :)
The point of my post was to agree with what you are ascerting in terms of the plausibility of a female leader in Gor. Where I think the role play possibilities are thrown out are with the insta titles that are given to often in SL Gor - both for women AND men. Why not let a woman vye for the role of magistrate? Why not allow her to RP out the possibilities of it being her biggest achievement or her biggest failure in terms of men finding a way to <insert sarcasm font> "bring her to her knees" so she can see MEN are truly the leaders of gor!!!
@Reverend psychoevolutionism or not is really not the point. If the males see some reason to put the woman in a position in which they "believe" they can ultimately control the decisions of a neutral party - why the hell not? They did with Tarna and maybe Talena as well. Why not make it more localized in terms of caste vs army or city control. For example, some members of the merchants want more of a say in the decisions regarding court rulings but they don't want to risk putting a man in place who might decide to do things his own way. He's a gorean man right? In the eyes of the Merchants, controlling a man might be more difficult than controlling a woman *cough*. If the RP is there to back up her progression up the ladder of her caste I could see it happen. Isn't Gor about power and control, even if it's on a civic level?
@Syndel I was only saying who the conversation was between so others not as familiar with the books wouldn't take it as a reference to Talena. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to correct you :)
The point of my post was to agree with what you are ascerting in terms of the plausibility of a female leader in Gor. Where I think the role play possibilities are thrown out are with the insta titles that are given to often in SL Gor - both for women AND men. Why not let a woman vye for the role of magistrate? Why not allow her to RP out the possibilities of it being her biggest achievement or her biggest failure in terms of men finding a way to <insert sarcasm font> "bring her to her knees" so she can see MEN are truly the leaders of gor!!!
@Reverend psychoevolutionism or not is really not the point. If the males see some reason to put the woman in a position in which they "believe" they can ultimately control the decisions of a neutral party - why the hell not? They did with Tarna and maybe Talena as well. Why not make it more localized in terms of caste vs army or city control. For example, some members of the merchants want more of a say in the decisions regarding court rulings but they don't want to risk putting a man in place who might decide to do things his own way. He's a gorean man right? In the eyes of the Merchants, controlling a man might be more difficult than controlling a woman *cough*. If the RP is there to back up her progression up the ladder of her caste I could see it happen. Isn't Gor about power and control, even if it's on a civic level?
Kail Lefevre:
Quote
The Tatrix of Tharna was a parable about corruption... political and cultural corruption resulting from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler. Our hapless heroes, Tarl and Kron, right these wrongs, reverse the order, cast FW from their walls and enslave the rest. The Tatrix remains in place during the revolt but she is placed beneath male authority behind the scenes. And they lived happily ever after ;P
Given that in the book the form of corruption in Outlaw of Gor took the form of replacing one Tatrix with another I fail to see your point. If the captain of Tharna had been installing the other Tatrix so he could control her then I might see it but in then end he knows he can't beat Tarl and stands to fight him giving his own life and risking the life of his own slave all to give his Tatrix time to escape. In the end he was a loyal lap dog, just to the wrong woman. Given that Goreans are loyal to a fault to their Home Stone and not to a person per-say it stands to reason that what happened with Tharna could of and likely has happened in a similar manner in other cities. Those with might dislike the current person in power and plot to replace them with some one in place to grab the power should the chance present it self.
Stating that this resulted from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler is incorrect. The corruption stems from how she ruled not that she had tits. When we meet Tatrix she is a selfish bitch that cares only for her self. She has forgotten her people, that she leads them for her benefit not for thier own. This more then any thing breeds resentment and corruption.
Then Tarl gives her his bone and she stops being a bitch and remembers that she has people that need taken care of and that she had allowed her own power to create a huge imbalance in her people. She shows in the kal-da house that she is willing and able to look after her people now and care about their needs by going around from table to table serving the men drink like a common woman. Which along with Tarl's words show that the men can now trust her again to look after them and right the wrongs and balance the scales.
If any thing I don't think the morale of this story is women in power breed corruption. I think the morale of this story is if you give a bitch a bone(r) that she'll behave.
Quote
The Tatrix of Tharna was a parable about corruption... political and cultural corruption resulting from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler. Our hapless heroes, Tarl and Kron, right these wrongs, reverse the order, cast FW from their walls and enslave the rest. The Tatrix remains in place during the revolt but she is placed beneath male authority behind the scenes. And they lived happily ever after ;P
Given that in the book the form of corruption in Outlaw of Gor took the form of replacing one Tatrix with another I fail to see your point. If the captain of Tharna had been installing the other Tatrix so he could control her then I might see it but in then end he knows he can't beat Tarl and stands to fight him giving his own life and risking the life of his own slave all to give his Tatrix time to escape. In the end he was a loyal lap dog, just to the wrong woman. Given that Goreans are loyal to a fault to their Home Stone and not to a person per-say it stands to reason that what happened with Tharna could of and likely has happened in a similar manner in other cities. Those with might dislike the current person in power and plot to replace them with some one in place to grab the power should the chance present it self.
Stating that this resulted from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler is incorrect. The corruption stems from how she ruled not that she had tits. When we meet Tatrix she is a selfish bitch that cares only for her self. She has forgotten her people, that she leads them for her benefit not for thier own. This more then any thing breeds resentment and corruption.
Then Tarl gives her his bone and she stops being a bitch and remembers that she has people that need taken care of and that she had allowed her own power to create a huge imbalance in her people. She shows in the kal-da house that she is willing and able to look after her people now and care about their needs by going around from table to table serving the men drink like a common woman. Which along with Tarl's words show that the men can now trust her again to look after them and right the wrongs and balance the scales.
If any thing I don't think the morale of this story is women in power breed corruption. I think the morale of this story is if you give a bitch a bone(r) that she'll behave.
Reverend Messmer:
Quote from: Elle Couerblanc on 04. October 2013, 21:34:03
@Syndel I was only saying who the conversation was between so others not as familiar with the books wouldn't take it as a reference to Talena. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to correct you :)
The point of my post was to agree with what you are ascerting in terms of the plausibility of a female leader in Gor. Where I think the role play possibilities are thrown out are with the insta titles that are given to often in SL Gor - both for women AND men. Why not let a woman vye for the role of magistrate? Why not allow her to RP out the possibilities of it being her biggest achievement or her biggest failure in terms of men finding a way to <insert sarcasm font> "bring her to her knees" so she can see MEN are truly the leaders of gor!!!
@Reverend psychoevolutionism or not is really not the point. If the males see some reason to put the woman in a position in which they "believe" they can ultimately control the decisions of a neutral party - why the hell not? They did with Tarna and maybe Talena as well. Why not make it more localized in terms of caste vs army or city control. For example, some members of the merchants want more of a say in the decisions regarding court rulings but they don't want to risk putting a man in place who might decide to do things his own way. He's a gorean man right? In the eyes of the Merchants, controlling a man might be more difficult than controlling a woman *cough*. If the RP is there to back up her progression up the ladder of her caste I could see it happen. Isn't Gor about power and control, even if it's on a civic level?
If you follow most of the story in the book the notion of equity between men and women is one of the weakness of Earth. Gorean men are considered superior to those of Earth for that specific reason in Norman work. It is BTB the morality of Gor. So female magistrate? Female juging male that are not Kajiru... Improbable.
In SL, possible, even BTB sim have some adaptation for making RP possible.
Quote from: Elle Couerblanc on 04. October 2013, 21:34:03
@Syndel I was only saying who the conversation was between so others not as familiar with the books wouldn't take it as a reference to Talena. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to correct you :)
The point of my post was to agree with what you are ascerting in terms of the plausibility of a female leader in Gor. Where I think the role play possibilities are thrown out are with the insta titles that are given to often in SL Gor - both for women AND men. Why not let a woman vye for the role of magistrate? Why not allow her to RP out the possibilities of it being her biggest achievement or her biggest failure in terms of men finding a way to <insert sarcasm font> "bring her to her knees" so she can see MEN are truly the leaders of gor!!!
@Reverend psychoevolutionism or not is really not the point. If the males see some reason to put the woman in a position in which they "believe" they can ultimately control the decisions of a neutral party - why the hell not? They did with Tarna and maybe Talena as well. Why not make it more localized in terms of caste vs army or city control. For example, some members of the merchants want more of a say in the decisions regarding court rulings but they don't want to risk putting a man in place who might decide to do things his own way. He's a gorean man right? In the eyes of the Merchants, controlling a man might be more difficult than controlling a woman *cough*. If the RP is there to back up her progression up the ladder of her caste I could see it happen. Isn't Gor about power and control, even if it's on a civic level?
If you follow most of the story in the book the notion of equity between men and women is one of the weakness of Earth. Gorean men are considered superior to those of Earth for that specific reason in Norman work. It is BTB the morality of Gor. So female magistrate? Female juging male that are not Kajiru... Improbable.
In SL, possible, even BTB sim have some adaptation for making RP possible.
Elle Couerblanc:
Quote from: Reverend Messmer on 05. October 2013, 17:34:53
Quote from: Elle Couerblanc on 04. October 2013, 21:34:03
@Syndel I was only saying who the conversation was between so others not as familiar with the books wouldn't take it as a reference to Talena. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to correct you :)
The point of my post was to agree with what you are ascerting in terms of the plausibility of a female leader in Gor. Where I think the role play possibilities are thrown out are with the insta titles that are given to often in SL Gor - both for women AND men. Why not let a woman vye for the role of magistrate? Why not allow her to RP out the possibilities of it being her biggest achievement or her biggest failure in terms of men finding a way to <insert sarcasm font> "bring her to her knees" so she can see MEN are truly the leaders of gor!!!
@Reverend psychoevolutionism or not is really not the point. If the males see some reason to put the woman in a position in which they "believe" they can ultimately control the decisions of a neutral party - why the hell not? They did with Tarna and maybe Talena as well. Why not make it more localized in terms of caste vs army or city control. For example, some members of the merchants want more of a say in the decisions regarding court rulings but they don't want to risk putting a man in place who might decide to do things his own way. He's a gorean man right? In the eyes of the Merchants, controlling a man might be more difficult than controlling a woman *cough*. If the RP is there to back up her progression up the ladder of her caste I could see it happen. Isn't Gor about power and control, even if it's on a civic level?
If you follow most of the story in the book the notion of equity between men and women is one of the weakness of Earth. Gorean men are considered superior to those of Earth for that specific reason in Norman work. It is BTB the morality of Gor. So female magistrate? Female juging male that are not Kajiru... Improbable.
In SL, possible, even BTB sim have some adaptation for making RP possible.
How can putting a woman in position of power to be used as a pawn considered an act of equality? They want control in decisions that concern them and since they view women as weaker would she not fit the bill?
Quote from: Reverend Messmer on 05. October 2013, 17:34:53
Quote from: Elle Couerblanc on 04. October 2013, 21:34:03
@Syndel I was only saying who the conversation was between so others not as familiar with the books wouldn't take it as a reference to Talena. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to correct you :)
The point of my post was to agree with what you are ascerting in terms of the plausibility of a female leader in Gor. Where I think the role play possibilities are thrown out are with the insta titles that are given to often in SL Gor - both for women AND men. Why not let a woman vye for the role of magistrate? Why not allow her to RP out the possibilities of it being her biggest achievement or her biggest failure in terms of men finding a way to <insert sarcasm font> "bring her to her knees" so she can see MEN are truly the leaders of gor!!!
@Reverend psychoevolutionism or not is really not the point. If the males see some reason to put the woman in a position in which they "believe" they can ultimately control the decisions of a neutral party - why the hell not? They did with Tarna and maybe Talena as well. Why not make it more localized in terms of caste vs army or city control. For example, some members of the merchants want more of a say in the decisions regarding court rulings but they don't want to risk putting a man in place who might decide to do things his own way. He's a gorean man right? In the eyes of the Merchants, controlling a man might be more difficult than controlling a woman *cough*. If the RP is there to back up her progression up the ladder of her caste I could see it happen. Isn't Gor about power and control, even if it's on a civic level?
If you follow most of the story in the book the notion of equity between men and women is one of the weakness of Earth. Gorean men are considered superior to those of Earth for that specific reason in Norman work. It is BTB the morality of Gor. So female magistrate? Female juging male that are not Kajiru... Improbable.
In SL, possible, even BTB sim have some adaptation for making RP possible.
How can putting a woman in position of power to be used as a pawn considered an act of equality? They want control in decisions that concern them and since they view women as weaker would she not fit the bill?
Nigaltwaddlesworthiii:
Quote from: Elle Couerblanc on 05. October 2013, 21:35:59
How can putting a woman in position of power to be used as a pawn considered an act of equality? They want control in decisions that concern them and since they view women as weaker would she not fit the bill?
I would tend to agree with you Elle, and have to wonder what about this point you and others make is difficult to understand.. ???
Edit for clarification:
It is clear that on SL, there has to be some leway given for some roles due to the lack of male player interest in such roles. That being a given, I view it as perfectly BTB that a woman would and could be used as a tool of ambitious and power hungry men to forward their own agendas. Placing a woman in some position of authority as a puppet is perfectly BTB manipulation, even if it is used as an example of 'why women should never be in power'. If she is the tool of men, ultimately she has no actual power over them, and is only serving to promote a man's agenda in a male dominated world.
Quote from: Elle Couerblanc on 05. October 2013, 21:35:59
How can putting a woman in position of power to be used as a pawn considered an act of equality? They want control in decisions that concern them and since they view women as weaker would she not fit the bill?
I would tend to agree with you Elle, and have to wonder what about this point you and others make is difficult to understand.. ???
Edit for clarification:
It is clear that on SL, there has to be some leway given for some roles due to the lack of male player interest in such roles. That being a given, I view it as perfectly BTB that a woman would and could be used as a tool of ambitious and power hungry men to forward their own agendas. Placing a woman in some position of authority as a puppet is perfectly BTB manipulation, even if it is used as an example of 'why women should never be in power'. If she is the tool of men, ultimately she has no actual power over them, and is only serving to promote a man's agenda in a male dominated world.
Kail Lefevre:
Have to watch that whole installing a woman to rule so you can control her thing.
Look how well that worked in the Eragon books with the Varden
http://www.gor-sl.com/index.php/board,1.0/wap2.html
Have to watch that whole installing a woman to rule so you can control her thing.
Look how well that worked in the Eragon books with the Varden
http://www.gor-sl.com/index.php/board,1.0/wap2.html
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