Showing posts with label Magistrate. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Magistrate. Show all posts
Wednesday, June 1, 2016
Thursday, June 26, 2014
Change in Position - A New Chapter
On Tuesday 6/24/2014 I handed back the titles of Head of Caste and Head Magistrate to my SL parents. They want someone in the office that will be there more often and who is able to devote more time. I knew that this should be true, but I can not give more time to SL. So in agreement I have become only their daughter. Currently I am nothing more, with no job that I have to see to or work on. Mother said something about me helping her in the infirmary... I would prefer not to do this. I like the thought of being able to visit and wonder around without having to devote my limited time to a job. It sounds fun to be able to talk with people and be social.
Sadly I asked the woman they wanted to fill the job the wrong thing. I asked about the title that floated over her head "bitchy scribe". From what I know so far it is true. Part of me hopes that she does come back and fulfill the position... though she might make it hard to be there. I still think having a man at the top would be a good thing for the blue caste. I however am no longer a scribe, no longer stuck in the mold of having to be a magistrate. I have been one all the time I have been in Gor. It will be fun to have something else to do. Just to be different... just to be a young daughter rather than a woman on top and above most men. No longer a threat to men and able to order then around.
So begins a new chapter. I did not go into SL last night. Tonight I shall venture in for an hour or two and will see what has happened.
Sadly I asked the woman they wanted to fill the job the wrong thing. I asked about the title that floated over her head "bitchy scribe". From what I know so far it is true. Part of me hopes that she does come back and fulfill the position... though she might make it hard to be there. I still think having a man at the top would be a good thing for the blue caste. I however am no longer a scribe, no longer stuck in the mold of having to be a magistrate. I have been one all the time I have been in Gor. It will be fun to have something else to do. Just to be different... just to be a young daughter rather than a woman on top and above most men. No longer a threat to men and able to order then around.
So begins a new chapter. I did not go into SL last night. Tonight I shall venture in for an hour or two and will see what has happened.
Friday, June 6, 2014
Should Free Woman be Magistrates in Gor
Rayah Marenwolf:
I was recently approached to whether my role is btb, should free woman be magistrates, there is some discussion that a free woman would not be given the authority to impale a free man for example, what if he was a spy?
I would love to hear your thoughts and quotes , there is nothing that says free woman cannot be magistrates ......this is all that I found
" I had seen few women, but knew that they, when free,
were promoted or demoted within the caste system according
Tarnsman of Gor [Gor Series Book 1]
by John Norman
49
to the same standards and criteria as the men, although this
varied, I was told, considerably from city to city. On the
whole, I liked the people I met, and I was confident that they
were largely of Earth stock, that their ancestors had been
brought to the planet in Voyages of Acquisition. Apparently,
after having been brought to the planet, they had simply
been released, much as animals might be released in a forest
preserve, or fish stocked free in a river."
I was recently approached to whether my role is btb, should free woman be magistrates, there is some discussion that a free woman would not be given the authority to impale a free man for example, what if he was a spy?
I would love to hear your thoughts and quotes , there is nothing that says free woman cannot be magistrates ......this is all that I found
" I had seen few women, but knew that they, when free,
were promoted or demoted within the caste system according
Tarnsman of Gor [Gor Series Book 1]
by John Norman
49
to the same standards and criteria as the men, although this
varied, I was told, considerably from city to city. On the
whole, I liked the people I met, and I was confident that they
were largely of Earth stock, that their ancestors had been
brought to the planet in Voyages of Acquisition. Apparently,
after having been brought to the planet, they had simply
been released, much as animals might be released in a forest
preserve, or fish stocked free in a river."
Mercy Riiser:
I do think that certain roles can be more difficult for a woman to fill in Gor than for a man just given the basics of what Gor is all about. But except for certain roles like warriors and a few others I don't see why a FW can't take on almost any role in SL. Given the reality of how many more women there in SL than men I think there is just a practical side to what it takes to run a sim. Obviously, a FW might get more bosk crap than a FM might get for taking on certain roles but I'd rather have a capable FW rp'ing as Magistrate handling issues BTB than an incompetent and lousy man rp'er in that same role. Just saying..... :)
Meri Slade:
Honestly I wouldn't worry about whether a FW can or can't be a Magistrate. Like Mercy said, we have lopsided gender numbers in SL Gor. If we only let male avs play some of these roles, there'd be a lot of empty roles. I would draw the line at warrior, Ubar, etc. But if you're looking for quotes and book proof, then you should also dig out the ones about FW being kept in towers and how only the men of the family worked in the caste.
Do your thing and anyone that complains to you can try to take the position away IC instead of whining about it OOCly.
Junea Demonia:
I would not worry about book quotes and endless discussions if women can fill certain roles or not. If the sim you play in allows you to be a female magistrate then you ARE the magistrate.
Thunder Wheatcliffe:
I've been lurking for a while and love seeing the comments and messages thorughout this forum.
One role I have had issue with a woman filling is Slaver. Frankly, it is a personal bias, and not one that is based on book quotations. I can certainly see this role of kennel mistress, though that can also be a slave role. In any case, my two tarsks - nothing philosophical, just an opinion.
Adoveea Rau:
I agree, we have enough lack of men in roles, magistrate is one of those that can be filled. You want more male magistrates? Get more male players. Simple as that.
Looks at Thunder VERY oddly
You know Fighting Slave of Gor IS one of the HUGE references for women slavers running and owning slave houses and training them. Male slaves was a specialty for Lady Tina.
Book or not, i personally no problems with women being slavers actually better then that ridiculous ooc title of kennel mistress..UNLESS you are referring to the appointment of a former male exotic slave-with oversized ear lobes in Assassin of Gor- Ho-Tu the Master Keeper.
I agree, we have enough lack of men in roles, magistrate is one of those that can be filled. You want more male magistrates? Get more male players. Simple as that.
Looks at Thunder VERY oddly
You know Fighting Slave of Gor IS one of the HUGE references for women slavers running and owning slave houses and training them. Male slaves was a specialty for Lady Tina.
Book or not, i personally no problems with women being slavers actually better then that ridiculous ooc title of kennel mistress..UNLESS you are referring to the appointment of a former male exotic slave-with oversized ear lobes in Assassin of Gor- Ho-Tu the Master Keeper.
Badeddy resident:
I agree with everyone who say its ok for her to be magistrate. There are more important battles to have in the name of BTB than this one. To get people to read as far as chapter 2 of Tarnsman would be one. I have seen awesome female magistrates, players who truly could play their role well.
But if we go BTB all the way, I think a women would deserve a metal for reaching that title
I agree with everyone who say its ok for her to be magistrate. There are more important battles to have in the name of BTB than this one. To get people to read as far as chapter 2 of Tarnsman would be one. I have seen awesome female magistrates, players who truly could play their role well.
But if we go BTB all the way, I think a women would deserve a metal for reaching that title
Raven:
A Magistrate has to be able to enforce the law, keep the peace and command men to carry out orders. Kind of like a Sheriff. I can't see a woman doing this in Norman's version of Gor. I guess she could have a bunch of guards who follow her around and crack skulls on her behalf but honestly who would respect such a person? Goreans probably wouldn't. Sounds a lot like Tarna to me.
A Magistrate has to be able to enforce the law, keep the peace and command men to carry out orders. Kind of like a Sheriff. I can't see a woman doing this in Norman's version of Gor. I guess she could have a bunch of guards who follow her around and crack skulls on her behalf but honestly who would respect such a person? Goreans probably wouldn't. Sounds a lot like Tarna to me.
Druhsus:
I agree with most here. I rather have a woman that walks the walk as a magistrate (or any other role) than a man who only talks a good game and then when he loses can just bitch and whine about it.
I agree with most here. I rather have a woman that walks the walk as a magistrate (or any other role) than a man who only talks a good game and then when he loses can just bitch and whine about it.
Clovisb Resident:
There's nothing wrong with female magistrates ...
If there was something wrong with female magistrates then it would equally be wrong for free women to be able to hire their own private guards to do their bidding etc.
It's exactly because the example of Tarna was given, and how the men there didn't mind following the orders of a woman, that it gives us evidence that gorean men surely wouldn't mind following the orders of a female Magistrate either.
We even are given the exact quote that Ubara's had entire armies at their fingers tips to command as they pleased... And if the scene of the Polemarkos of Cos teaches us anything it shows us even how goreans didn't even mind to grovel at the feet of a high slave either to get in good standing with someone.
Whatever SL Gor has been trying to teach people ... Gorean men were not ultra-dommes who would refuse to obey orders from female superiors.
There's nothing wrong with female magistrates ...
If there was something wrong with female magistrates then it would equally be wrong for free women to be able to hire their own private guards to do their bidding etc.
It's exactly because the example of Tarna was given, and how the men there didn't mind following the orders of a woman, that it gives us evidence that gorean men surely wouldn't mind following the orders of a female Magistrate either.
We even are given the exact quote that Ubara's had entire armies at their fingers tips to command as they pleased... And if the scene of the Polemarkos of Cos teaches us anything it shows us even how goreans didn't even mind to grovel at the feet of a high slave either to get in good standing with someone.
Whatever SL Gor has been trying to teach people ... Gorean men were not ultra-dommes who would refuse to obey orders from female superiors.
consuelo albanese:
A Magistrate is a city official, with the backing of the city's leadership or they wouldn't be Magistrate. To say that a female Magistrate wouldn't garner any respect from a typical Gorean male wouldn't be very by-the-book at all. If Marlenus appointed Lady Kath (a high caste Scribe) as a Magistrate of Ar, you'd better believe that Joe Biker Gorean would offer her the respect that she deserved... or face a higher court.
A Magistrate is a city official, with the backing of the city's leadership or they wouldn't be Magistrate. To say that a female Magistrate wouldn't garner any respect from a typical Gorean male wouldn't be very by-the-book at all. If Marlenus appointed Lady Kath (a high caste Scribe) as a Magistrate of Ar, you'd better believe that Joe Biker Gorean would offer her the respect that she deserved... or face a higher court.
Raven:
Quote from: Druhsus on 03. April 2013, 04:28:04
I agree with most here. I rather have a woman that walks the walk as a magistrate (or any other role) than a man who only talks a good game and then when he loses can just bitch and whine about it.
LOL. Someone is angry with me I think.
Quote from: Druhsus on 03. April 2013, 04:28:04
I agree with most here. I rather have a woman that walks the walk as a magistrate (or any other role) than a man who only talks a good game and then when he loses can just bitch and whine about it.
LOL. Someone is angry with me I think.
Raven:
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 05:14:29
There's nothing wrong with female magistrates ...
If there was something wrong with female magistrates then it would equally be wrong for free women to be able to hire their own private guards to do their bidding etc.
It's exactly because the example of Tarna was given, and how the men there didn't mind following the orders of a woman, that it gives us evidence that gorean men surely wouldn't mind following the orders of a female Magistrate either.
We even are given the exact quote that Ubara's had entire armies at their fingers tips to command as they pleased... And if the scene of the Polemarkos of Cos teaches us anything it shows us even how goreans didn't even mind to grovel at the feet of a high slave either to get in good standing with someone.
Whatever SL Gor has been trying to teach people ... Gorean men were not ultra-dommes who would refuse to obey orders from female superiors.
I don't think a female "superior" such as an Ubara is the point of the question. The question asked was should free women be Magistrates in Gor. I assume we are talking about the Gor from the books. In SL Gor women can do anything depending on how by the books the sim is.
Tarna was put in power by the Salt Ubar to insult the two tribes of the Tahari. The men under her were just following his orders. A female being in command of the men was in fact a big deal. She had no real power or command though and the moment she had to do any real fighting she was easily bested by Tarl Cabot. JN used her as an example of why female fighters/commanders don't work, at least in his version of Gor. We've discussed this before.
Quote
“And strangest of all,” said the merchant, leaning forward, looking at us intently, “is the fact that the Aretai raiders were led by a woman!”
“A woman?” asked Hassan.
“Yes,” said the merchant.
Tribesmen of Gor P.179
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 05:14:29
There's nothing wrong with female magistrates ...
If there was something wrong with female magistrates then it would equally be wrong for free women to be able to hire their own private guards to do their bidding etc.
It's exactly because the example of Tarna was given, and how the men there didn't mind following the orders of a woman, that it gives us evidence that gorean men surely wouldn't mind following the orders of a female Magistrate either.
We even are given the exact quote that Ubara's had entire armies at their fingers tips to command as they pleased... And if the scene of the Polemarkos of Cos teaches us anything it shows us even how goreans didn't even mind to grovel at the feet of a high slave either to get in good standing with someone.
Whatever SL Gor has been trying to teach people ... Gorean men were not ultra-dommes who would refuse to obey orders from female superiors.
I don't think a female "superior" such as an Ubara is the point of the question. The question asked was should free women be Magistrates in Gor. I assume we are talking about the Gor from the books. In SL Gor women can do anything depending on how by the books the sim is.
Tarna was put in power by the Salt Ubar to insult the two tribes of the Tahari. The men under her were just following his orders. A female being in command of the men was in fact a big deal. She had no real power or command though and the moment she had to do any real fighting she was easily bested by Tarl Cabot. JN used her as an example of why female fighters/commanders don't work, at least in his version of Gor. We've discussed this before.
Quote
“And strangest of all,” said the merchant, leaning forward, looking at us intently, “is the fact that the Aretai raiders were led by a woman!”
“A woman?” asked Hassan.
“Yes,” said the merchant.
Tribesmen of Gor P.179
Violetta Daviau:
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 08:41:22
... She had no real power or command though and the moment she had to do any real fighting she was easily bested by Tarl Cabot. ...
As Tarl, as central Gorean warrior caste member - and hero of the story - bested every man, also the taharian tribesmen who had not the pleasure of his caste training.
Unlike the men he bested though he made compliments about Tarna's fighting skills, which he, if I remember, did neither about other woman he quarreled with (e.g. panther girls).
That though only as sidenote, to not derail the thread...
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 08:41:22
... She had no real power or command though and the moment she had to do any real fighting she was easily bested by Tarl Cabot. ...
As Tarl, as central Gorean warrior caste member - and hero of the story - bested every man, also the taharian tribesmen who had not the pleasure of his caste training.
Unlike the men he bested though he made compliments about Tarna's fighting skills, which he, if I remember, did neither about other woman he quarreled with (e.g. panther girls).
That though only as sidenote, to not derail the thread...
Raven:
Quote from: Violetta Daviau on 03. April 2013, 09:12:13
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 08:41:22
... She had no real power or command though and the moment she had to do any real fighting she was easily bested by Tarl Cabot. ...
As Tarl, as central Gorean warrior caste member - and hero of the story - bested every man, also the taharian tribesmen who had not the pleasure of his caste training.
Unlike the men he bested though he made compliments about Tarna's fighting skills, which he, if I remember, did neither about other woman he quarreled with (e.g. panther girls).
That though only as sidenote, to not derail the thread...
I wouldn't agree that he complimented her fighting skills. He actually told her she wasn't all that.
Quote
"Fool!" she said. "Sleen! I am Tarna!" She lifted the scimitar. "I am more than a match for any man!" she cried.
I met her charge. She was not unskillful. I fended her blows. I did not lay the weight of my own steel on hers, that I not tire her arm. I let her strike, and slash, and feint and thrust. Twice she drew back sddenly in fear, almost a wince, or reflex, realizing she had exposed herself to my blade, but I had not struck her.
"You are not a match for a warrior," I told her. It was true. I had crossed steel with hundreds of men, in practice and in the fierce games of war, who could have finished her, swiftly and with ease, had they chosen to do so.
--Tribesmen of Gor P. 390
Quote from: Violetta Daviau on 03. April 2013, 09:12:13
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 08:41:22
... She had no real power or command though and the moment she had to do any real fighting she was easily bested by Tarl Cabot. ...
As Tarl, as central Gorean warrior caste member - and hero of the story - bested every man, also the taharian tribesmen who had not the pleasure of his caste training.
Unlike the men he bested though he made compliments about Tarna's fighting skills, which he, if I remember, did neither about other woman he quarreled with (e.g. panther girls).
That though only as sidenote, to not derail the thread...
I wouldn't agree that he complimented her fighting skills. He actually told her she wasn't all that.
Quote
"Fool!" she said. "Sleen! I am Tarna!" She lifted the scimitar. "I am more than a match for any man!" she cried.
I met her charge. She was not unskillful. I fended her blows. I did not lay the weight of my own steel on hers, that I not tire her arm. I let her strike, and slash, and feint and thrust. Twice she drew back sddenly in fear, almost a wince, or reflex, realizing she had exposed herself to my blade, but I had not struck her.
"You are not a match for a warrior," I told her. It was true. I had crossed steel with hundreds of men, in practice and in the fierce games of war, who could have finished her, swiftly and with ease, had they chosen to do so.
--Tribesmen of Gor P. 390
Conall DeCuir:
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 02. April 2013, 19:30:42
I was recently approached to whether my role is btb, should free woman be magistrates, there is some discussion that a free woman would not be given the authority to impale a free man for example, what if he was a spy?
I would love to hear your thoughts and quotes , there is nothing that says free woman cannot be magistrates ......this is all that I found
" I had seen few women, but knew that they, when free,
were promoted or demoted within the caste system according
Tarnsman of Gor [Gor Series Book 1]
by John Norman
49
to the same standards and criteria as the men, although this
varied, I was told, considerably from city to city. On the
whole, I liked the people I met, and I was confident that they
were largely of Earth stock, that their ancestors had been
brought to the planet in Voyages of Acquisition. Apparently,
after having been brought to the planet, they had simply
been released, much as animals might be released in a forest
preserve, or fish stocked free in a river."
That quote of you has for me nothing to do with putting women into power and is just a generalised explaining how caste membership/culture was handled at gor. We know, that free women could be of caste, like free men.
But yet
[women] ...seldom release the following instinct in men. Men, accordingly, do not on the whole, care to follow them. In doing so they generally feel uncomfortable. It makes them uneasy. They sense the absurdity, the unnaturalness, of the relationship. It is thus that normal men commonly follow women only unwillingly, and only with reservations, usually also only within an artificial context or within the confines of a misguided, choiceless or naive institution, where their discipline may be relied upon. Their compliance with orders in such a situation cannot help but be more critical, more skeptical. Their activities tend then to be performed with less confidence, and more hesitantly. This often produces serious consequences to the efficiency of their actions. It is interesting to note that even women seldom care to follow women, particularly in critical situations. The male, biologically, for better or for worse, appears to be the natural leader. In the perversion of nature, of course, anything may occur. ...
---Players of Gor, 15:288
I am not saying, that it would be absolutly impossible that there are female magistrates but they would be very very rare and their workplace would be inside the courthall only and much more limited. They wouldn't be men.
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 02. April 2013, 19:30:42
I was recently approached to whether my role is btb, should free woman be magistrates, there is some discussion that a free woman would not be given the authority to impale a free man for example, what if he was a spy?
I would love to hear your thoughts and quotes , there is nothing that says free woman cannot be magistrates ......this is all that I found
" I had seen few women, but knew that they, when free,
were promoted or demoted within the caste system according
Tarnsman of Gor [Gor Series Book 1]
by John Norman
49
to the same standards and criteria as the men, although this
varied, I was told, considerably from city to city. On the
whole, I liked the people I met, and I was confident that they
were largely of Earth stock, that their ancestors had been
brought to the planet in Voyages of Acquisition. Apparently,
after having been brought to the planet, they had simply
been released, much as animals might be released in a forest
preserve, or fish stocked free in a river."
That quote of you has for me nothing to do with putting women into power and is just a generalised explaining how caste membership/culture was handled at gor. We know, that free women could be of caste, like free men.
But yet
[women] ...seldom release the following instinct in men. Men, accordingly, do not on the whole, care to follow them. In doing so they generally feel uncomfortable. It makes them uneasy. They sense the absurdity, the unnaturalness, of the relationship. It is thus that normal men commonly follow women only unwillingly, and only with reservations, usually also only within an artificial context or within the confines of a misguided, choiceless or naive institution, where their discipline may be relied upon. Their compliance with orders in such a situation cannot help but be more critical, more skeptical. Their activities tend then to be performed with less confidence, and more hesitantly. This often produces serious consequences to the efficiency of their actions. It is interesting to note that even women seldom care to follow women, particularly in critical situations. The male, biologically, for better or for worse, appears to be the natural leader. In the perversion of nature, of course, anything may occur. ...
---Players of Gor, 15:288
I am not saying, that it would be absolutly impossible that there are female magistrates but they would be very very rare and their workplace would be inside the courthall only and much more limited. They wouldn't be men.
Aphris Myoo:
Quote from: Conall DeCuir on 03. April 2013, 10:02:05
I am not saying, that it would be absolutly impossible that there are female magistrates but they would be very very rare and their workplace would be inside the courthall only and much more limited. They wouldn't be men.
The quote following yours proves that. It states that women can get power (in this case through the Ubar) and that she can make many men believe she is a leader. But as you said "she would never be a man"
Quote from: Players of Gor
I looked up at the Lady Yanina. How small and soft, and luscious, she was. How absurd then, and how unnatural, seemed her position of power, temporary though it might be, over these men. How envious she seemed of men, particularly of her rival, Flaminius. How she was straining to seem a leader, how she must have studied what she took to be its lessons well, how she must have firmly resolved to act that role with determination. Perhaps if she did it well she could fool men; perhaps, if she did it well, she could boldly carry off the pretense; perhaps, if she did it well, she would be accepted almost as though she were a real leader, a true leader. Perhaps, if she did it well, no one would notice that she was really only a small, soft, shapely, lovely creature, one whose natural destiny would be found quite elsewhere than in the saddle of a tharlarion, at the head of troops.
Females can play the role of a leader, but they should do it as a female, not as a man.
Quote from: Conall DeCuir on 03. April 2013, 10:02:05
I am not saying, that it would be absolutly impossible that there are female magistrates but they would be very very rare and their workplace would be inside the courthall only and much more limited. They wouldn't be men.
The quote following yours proves that. It states that women can get power (in this case through the Ubar) and that she can make many men believe she is a leader. But as you said "she would never be a man"
Quote from: Players of Gor
I looked up at the Lady Yanina. How small and soft, and luscious, she was. How absurd then, and how unnatural, seemed her position of power, temporary though it might be, over these men. How envious she seemed of men, particularly of her rival, Flaminius. How she was straining to seem a leader, how she must have studied what she took to be its lessons well, how she must have firmly resolved to act that role with determination. Perhaps if she did it well she could fool men; perhaps, if she did it well, she could boldly carry off the pretense; perhaps, if she did it well, she would be accepted almost as though she were a real leader, a true leader. Perhaps, if she did it well, no one would notice that she was really only a small, soft, shapely, lovely creature, one whose natural destiny would be found quite elsewhere than in the saddle of a tharlarion, at the head of troops.
Females can play the role of a leader, but they should do it as a female, not as a man.
Clovisb Resident:
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 08:41:22
I don't think a female "superior" such as an Ubara is the point of the question. The question asked was should free women be Magistrates in Gor. I assume we are talking about the Gor from the books. In SL Gor women can do anything depending on how by the books the sim is.
I don't see the ... point of what you tried to say.
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
It doesn't matter who appointed Tarna as a Commander or not either, the men under her still had to follow her orders. Neither did the scribes complain when Tarl made a slave-girl head of their accounting business in Port Kar, neither did the men seem ashamed of groveling at the feet of a slave-girl (of the Polemarkos of Cos) to get her favour.
And what does a woman do who owns personal guards? She orders them around.
The books are full with men having female superiors, sometimes even slaves as superiors... Besides the quotes given from Players of Gor where Tarl is doing his crazy-talk in the narration... since Tarl always is the uber-dom anti-feminist. It's not because Tarl says or thinks something in the books that it's 'true'... He's just an exaggurated chauvenistic unstoppable superman in the books to piss off the feminist movement.
If Cookie Monster had been the main character in the books we'd have read endless passages about how cookies are the best thing in the world. If Stalin had been the main character in the books we would've had endless narration about how ridiculous democracy is and how unfallible and just communism is... doesn't mean it's true or strokes with reality, we'd just be hearing the (deranged) political opinion of the main character in the narration the whole time.
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 08:41:22
I don't think a female "superior" such as an Ubara is the point of the question. The question asked was should free women be Magistrates in Gor. I assume we are talking about the Gor from the books. In SL Gor women can do anything depending on how by the books the sim is.
I don't see the ... point of what you tried to say.
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
It doesn't matter who appointed Tarna as a Commander or not either, the men under her still had to follow her orders. Neither did the scribes complain when Tarl made a slave-girl head of their accounting business in Port Kar, neither did the men seem ashamed of groveling at the feet of a slave-girl (of the Polemarkos of Cos) to get her favour.
And what does a woman do who owns personal guards? She orders them around.
The books are full with men having female superiors, sometimes even slaves as superiors... Besides the quotes given from Players of Gor where Tarl is doing his crazy-talk in the narration... since Tarl always is the uber-dom anti-feminist. It's not because Tarl says or thinks something in the books that it's 'true'... He's just an exaggurated chauvenistic unstoppable superman in the books to piss off the feminist movement.
If Cookie Monster had been the main character in the books we'd have read endless passages about how cookies are the best thing in the world. If Stalin had been the main character in the books we would've had endless narration about how ridiculous democracy is and how unfallible and just communism is... doesn't mean it's true or strokes with reality, we'd just be hearing the (deranged) political opinion of the main character in the narration the whole time.
Zophie Cabassoun:
I guess i am a bit old fashioned here, feeling a female magistate somehow would ruin my picture of being in Gor.
Its for me, a bit the same as femlaws. We know the majority of players are women and many women are way better in using the bow then men, but still we do not want women to be warriors...
Played well and maybe with a NPC high magistrate, it could maybe be done - but I would hate to see it all over and as a general thing.
Keeping it realistic i would personally prefer to see a woman making a male avi and play the role like that - as some do to be able to fight- I am sure 'he' would gain much more respect from other men as well that way:)
But it just me - I can be so stiff in my ways of Gor that it kills me sometimes! :)
I guess i am a bit old fashioned here, feeling a female magistate somehow would ruin my picture of being in Gor.
Its for me, a bit the same as femlaws. We know the majority of players are women and many women are way better in using the bow then men, but still we do not want women to be warriors...
Played well and maybe with a NPC high magistrate, it could maybe be done - but I would hate to see it all over and as a general thing.
Keeping it realistic i would personally prefer to see a woman making a male avi and play the role like that - as some do to be able to fight- I am sure 'he' would gain much more respect from other men as well that way:)
But it just me - I can be so stiff in my ways of Gor that it kills me sometimes! :)
Violetta Daviau:
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 09:32:13
...
I wouldn't agree that he complimented her fighting skills. He actually told her she wasn't all that.
Quote
"Fool!" she said. "Sleen! I am Tarna!" She lifted the scimitar. "I am more than a match for any man!" she cried.
I met her charge. She was not unskillful. I fended her blows. I did not lay the weight of my own steel on hers, that I not tire her arm. I let her strike, and slash, and feint and thrust. Twice she drew back sddenly in fear, almost a wince, or reflex, realizing she had exposed herself to my blade, but I had not struck her.
"You are not a match for a warrior," I told her. It was true. I had crossed steel with hundreds of men, in practice and in the fierce games of war, who could have finished her, swiftly and with ease, had they chosen to do so.
--Tribesmen of Gor P. 390
That bold is what I meant, surely she was not a match for a trained warrior - but neither were the men in the Tahari apparently, and what he tells about the other men he fought tells that those could have bested HER, but obviously neither him...
Quote from: Raven on 03. April 2013, 09:32:13
...
I wouldn't agree that he complimented her fighting skills. He actually told her she wasn't all that.
Quote
"Fool!" she said. "Sleen! I am Tarna!" She lifted the scimitar. "I am more than a match for any man!" she cried.
I met her charge. She was not unskillful. I fended her blows. I did not lay the weight of my own steel on hers, that I not tire her arm. I let her strike, and slash, and feint and thrust. Twice she drew back sddenly in fear, almost a wince, or reflex, realizing she had exposed herself to my blade, but I had not struck her.
"You are not a match for a warrior," I told her. It was true. I had crossed steel with hundreds of men, in practice and in the fierce games of war, who could have finished her, swiftly and with ease, had they chosen to do so.
--Tribesmen of Gor P. 390
That bold is what I meant, surely she was not a match for a trained warrior - but neither were the men in the Tahari apparently, and what he tells about the other men he fought tells that those could have bested HER, but obviously neither him...
Conall DeCuir:
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:11:29
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
There's no Ubara without an Ubar and she would be only in charge because of him and if he lets her.
Now for being Tatrix or Commander of men, sure that happend but it wasn't common and if, then only honored at her Home Stone as long the men made her and let her be ... in the case of a female Magistrate, to speak judgement as the men wished, as she was told ? and not because of what she wanted to do ? Now you can of course say, that even a male Magistrate could possibly be bribed or be forced to act as a toy in a game of men, but how long would that work ?
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:11:29
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
There's no Ubara without an Ubar and she would be only in charge because of him and if he lets her.
Now for being Tatrix or Commander of men, sure that happend but it wasn't common and if, then only honored at her Home Stone as long the men made her and let her be ... in the case of a female Magistrate, to speak judgement as the men wished, as she was told ? and not because of what she wanted to do ? Now you can of course say, that even a male Magistrate could possibly be bribed or be forced to act as a toy in a game of men, but how long would that work ?
Clovisb Resident:
Quote from: Conall DeCuir on 03. April 2013, 11:37:07
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:11:29
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
There's no Ubara without an Ubar and she would be only in charge because of him and if he lets her.
Now for being Tatrix or Commander of men, sure that happend but it wasn't common and if, then only honored at her Home Stone as long the men made her and let her be ... in the case of a female Magistrate, to speak judgement as the men wished, as she was told ? and not because of what she wanted to do ? Now you can of course say, that even a male Magistrate could possibly be bribed or be forced to act as a toy in a game of men, but how long would that work ?
And where exactly do people draw the conclusion from that women can only do as men tell them to do?
I guess I'm not able to draw as conclusion from the books that all Free Women on Gor are somehow dependant ditzy blondes that can only follow the instructions of men.
If a woman can be the head of a fighting slave business, and can boss her private guards around to do this and that... (Jason trilogy) Then I don't see the difference with a female Magistrate ordering city-guards around to do this and that either.
Quote from: Conall DeCuir on 03. April 2013, 11:37:07
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:11:29
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
There's no Ubara without an Ubar and she would be only in charge because of him and if he lets her.
Now for being Tatrix or Commander of men, sure that happend but it wasn't common and if, then only honored at her Home Stone as long the men made her and let her be ... in the case of a female Magistrate, to speak judgement as the men wished, as she was told ? and not because of what she wanted to do ? Now you can of course say, that even a male Magistrate could possibly be bribed or be forced to act as a toy in a game of men, but how long would that work ?
And where exactly do people draw the conclusion from that women can only do as men tell them to do?
I guess I'm not able to draw as conclusion from the books that all Free Women on Gor are somehow dependant ditzy blondes that can only follow the instructions of men.
If a woman can be the head of a fighting slave business, and can boss her private guards around to do this and that... (Jason trilogy) Then I don't see the difference with a female Magistrate ordering city-guards around to do this and that either.
Conall DeCuir:
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:50:16
Quote from: Conall DeCuir on 03. April 2013, 11:37:07
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:11:29
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
There's no Ubara without an Ubar and she would be only in charge because of him and if he lets her.
Now for being Tatrix or Commander of men, sure that happend but it wasn't common and if, then only honored at her Home Stone as long the men made her and let her be ... in the case of a female Magistrate, to speak judgement as the men wished, as she was told ? and not because of what she wanted to do ? Now you can of course say, that even a male Magistrate could possibly be bribed or be forced to act as a toy in a game of men, but how long would that work ?
And where exactly do people draw the conclusion from that women can only do as men tell them to do?
I guess I'm not able to draw as conclusion from the books that all Free Women on Gor are somehow dependant ditzy blondes that can only follow the instructions of men.
If a woman can be the head of a fighting slave business, and can boss her private guards around to do this and that... (Jason trilogy) Then I don't see the difference with a female Magistrate ordering city-guards around to do this and that either.
She can own and manage every of her own business be it of caste or not, when she has the power and the coins to pay men and guards. Still for me there is a difference between owning and managing her own slave house or bakery or being put in charge of a position like magistrate.
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:50:16
Quote from: Conall DeCuir on 03. April 2013, 11:37:07
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 03. April 2013, 11:11:29
If a woman can be an Ubara then why can't she be a Magistrate?
There's no Ubara without an Ubar and she would be only in charge because of him and if he lets her.
Now for being Tatrix or Commander of men, sure that happend but it wasn't common and if, then only honored at her Home Stone as long the men made her and let her be ... in the case of a female Magistrate, to speak judgement as the men wished, as she was told ? and not because of what she wanted to do ? Now you can of course say, that even a male Magistrate could possibly be bribed or be forced to act as a toy in a game of men, but how long would that work ?
And where exactly do people draw the conclusion from that women can only do as men tell them to do?
I guess I'm not able to draw as conclusion from the books that all Free Women on Gor are somehow dependant ditzy blondes that can only follow the instructions of men.
If a woman can be the head of a fighting slave business, and can boss her private guards around to do this and that... (Jason trilogy) Then I don't see the difference with a female Magistrate ordering city-guards around to do this and that either.
She can own and manage every of her own business be it of caste or not, when she has the power and the coins to pay men and guards. Still for me there is a difference between owning and managing her own slave house or bakery or being put in charge of a position like magistrate.
Violetta Daviau:
I think Gorean men are not ALL stupid, and neither all are suffering from false pride as to admit that a woman could be better suited for a rank than themselfes, and thus if they see a benefit in a woman having a position of rank, they will use that benefit. In the end it is not all men against all women either. It does not depend on if all men in homestone accept a woman in charge but if the men that see her as superior, or even smarter, better in politics, with better network and what not, are strong enough to make other men accept that ruling too.
An example might be a warrior caste leader who has absolutely no hand in dealing with mighty merchants but needs the coin for his fame bringing war plans - it could be well plausible that he protects a certain woman to be in charge, be it on level of Tatrix or administrator for certain affairs... why not?
Now if one of those "protectors" gets an itching cock... it becomes dangerous for her...
I guess the problem for SL Gor are only these:
There are too few men in comparison to women and even less willing to TAKE ranks at allThere are too few players in general that are willing or even only able to FILL a rank with roleplay. And that is a quite spanning problem - too many people hold ranks in a way of title hogging, they do not play the role really, ranging from Tavern owners that never move a finger for their tavern, over smiths who never hold a hammer, to administrators or even ubars who do jack shit as well... and some of them political roles are also just frustrating to play as when it comes to bestow consequences on "criminal" or else politically intrigued against players, those bow out if needed by the use of the drama hammer...
I think Gorean men are not ALL stupid, and neither all are suffering from false pride as to admit that a woman could be better suited for a rank than themselfes, and thus if they see a benefit in a woman having a position of rank, they will use that benefit. In the end it is not all men against all women either. It does not depend on if all men in homestone accept a woman in charge but if the men that see her as superior, or even smarter, better in politics, with better network and what not, are strong enough to make other men accept that ruling too.
An example might be a warrior caste leader who has absolutely no hand in dealing with mighty merchants but needs the coin for his fame bringing war plans - it could be well plausible that he protects a certain woman to be in charge, be it on level of Tatrix or administrator for certain affairs... why not?
Now if one of those "protectors" gets an itching cock... it becomes dangerous for her...
I guess the problem for SL Gor are only these:
There are too few men in comparison to women and even less willing to TAKE ranks at allThere are too few players in general that are willing or even only able to FILL a rank with roleplay. And that is a quite spanning problem - too many people hold ranks in a way of title hogging, they do not play the role really, ranging from Tavern owners that never move a finger for their tavern, over smiths who never hold a hammer, to administrators or even ubars who do jack shit as well... and some of them political roles are also just frustrating to play as when it comes to bestow consequences on "criminal" or else politically intrigued against players, those bow out if needed by the use of the drama hammer...
Aphris Myoo:
Quote from: Violetta Daviau on 03. April 2013, 12:16:51
Now if one of those "protectors" gets an itching cock... it becomes dangerous for her...
Thats why Angela Merkel does so well.
The UberGorean in RL Silvio the Horny called her "an unfuckable cow". no danger for itching there.
Quote from: Violetta Daviau on 03. April 2013, 12:16:51
Now if one of those "protectors" gets an itching cock... it becomes dangerous for her...
Thats why Angela Merkel does so well.
The UberGorean in RL Silvio the Horny called her "an unfuckable cow". no danger for itching there.
Rayah Marenwolf:
Well it is a position that you must be qualified for, and its true men are not stupid they will not blindly follow a silly free woman that knows not what she speaks about, there are very few free woman magistrates in gor, and only two I know of as merchant magistrates, you have to deal alot with laws and not many want to have to do that, its detailed, I think we need to use common sense, there are some things a free woman would not be allowed to do as magistrate, and she knows her place, free men allow her to be magistrate, and it takes many gorean years to gain the respect in gor of the men to be heard, other wise you are dismissed easily, it is hard to be a free woman taken seriously in gor , you some how have to prove yourself. and yes there are many free woman in gor and many free men, but there are not many magistrates or merchant magistrates, Mercy was the first one I had seen, and inspired me to pursue the merchant laws, I think its an interesting role play, but very hard to play and not abuse the power where men feel you are not btb I think...I do agree with conall , women can not be as decisive as men, for example killing a man, a praetor a free man would feel no remorse or second guess himself when he Impales a man, where as I would ......so I woudl refrain from any treason trials of a free man, but I have done of free woman, even though its role play, its still hard to do such, I had a friend magistrate who had to sentence a pregnant free woman to death, and even until today he feels bad about it and hes a free man, I do not think I could of done it.....but anyway its a hard role play and not many want to do it, I do beleive its btb but common sense needs to be used while doing it, not arrogance or trying to be superiour over the free man
Well it is a position that you must be qualified for, and its true men are not stupid they will not blindly follow a silly free woman that knows not what she speaks about, there are very few free woman magistrates in gor, and only two I know of as merchant magistrates, you have to deal alot with laws and not many want to have to do that, its detailed, I think we need to use common sense, there are some things a free woman would not be allowed to do as magistrate, and she knows her place, free men allow her to be magistrate, and it takes many gorean years to gain the respect in gor of the men to be heard, other wise you are dismissed easily, it is hard to be a free woman taken seriously in gor , you some how have to prove yourself. and yes there are many free woman in gor and many free men, but there are not many magistrates or merchant magistrates, Mercy was the first one I had seen, and inspired me to pursue the merchant laws, I think its an interesting role play, but very hard to play and not abuse the power where men feel you are not btb I think...I do agree with conall , women can not be as decisive as men, for example killing a man, a praetor a free man would feel no remorse or second guess himself when he Impales a man, where as I would ......so I woudl refrain from any treason trials of a free man, but I have done of free woman, even though its role play, its still hard to do such, I had a friend magistrate who had to sentence a pregnant free woman to death, and even until today he feels bad about it and hes a free man, I do not think I could of done it.....but anyway its a hard role play and not many want to do it, I do beleive its btb but common sense needs to be used while doing it, not arrogance or trying to be superiour over the free man
Conall DeCuir:
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 03. April 2013, 16:41:49
Well it is a position that you must be qualified for, and its true men are not stupid they will not blindly follow a silly free woman that knows not what she speaks about, there are very few free woman magistrates in gor, and only two I know of as merchant magistrates, you have to deal alot with laws and not many want to have to do that, its detailed, I think we need to use common sense, there are some things a free woman would not be allowed to do as magistrate, and she knows her place, free men allow her to be magistrate, and it takes many gorean years to gain the respect in gor of the men to be heard, other wise you are dismissed easily, it is hard to be a free woman taken seriously in gor , you some how have to prove yourself. and yes there are many free woman in gor and many free men, but there are not many magistrates or merchant magistrates, Mercy was the first one I had seen, and inspired me to pursue the merchant laws, I think its an interesting role play, but very hard to play and not abuse the power where men feel you are not btb I think...I do agree with conall , women can not be as decisive as men, for example killing a man, a praetor a free man would feel no remorse or second guess himself when he Impales a man, where as I would ......so I woudl refrain from any treason trials of a free man, but I have done of free woman, even though its role play, its still hard to do such, I had a friend magistrate who had to sentence a pregnant free woman to death, and even until today he feels bad about it and hes a free man, I do not think I could of done it.....but anyway its a hard role play and not many want to do it, I do beleive its btb but common sense needs to be used while doing it, not arrogance or trying to be superiour over the free man
I do not understand the part i marked bold. If you think as a female magistrate that you cannot speak law as it is written in your laws, how can you be magistrate at all. For me a magistrate will judge and sentence. No magistrate has to impale anyone by himself nor has he to take care ... he speaks law, there are guards who will execute the sentence.
Imagine me right now looking at you, because if you are biased by gender while doing your work, how can you do a good job ?
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 03. April 2013, 16:41:49
Well it is a position that you must be qualified for, and its true men are not stupid they will not blindly follow a silly free woman that knows not what she speaks about, there are very few free woman magistrates in gor, and only two I know of as merchant magistrates, you have to deal alot with laws and not many want to have to do that, its detailed, I think we need to use common sense, there are some things a free woman would not be allowed to do as magistrate, and she knows her place, free men allow her to be magistrate, and it takes many gorean years to gain the respect in gor of the men to be heard, other wise you are dismissed easily, it is hard to be a free woman taken seriously in gor , you some how have to prove yourself. and yes there are many free woman in gor and many free men, but there are not many magistrates or merchant magistrates, Mercy was the first one I had seen, and inspired me to pursue the merchant laws, I think its an interesting role play, but very hard to play and not abuse the power where men feel you are not btb I think...I do agree with conall , women can not be as decisive as men, for example killing a man, a praetor a free man would feel no remorse or second guess himself when he Impales a man, where as I would ......so I woudl refrain from any treason trials of a free man, but I have done of free woman, even though its role play, its still hard to do such, I had a friend magistrate who had to sentence a pregnant free woman to death, and even until today he feels bad about it and hes a free man, I do not think I could of done it.....but anyway its a hard role play and not many want to do it, I do beleive its btb but common sense needs to be used while doing it, not arrogance or trying to be superiour over the free man
I do not understand the part i marked bold. If you think as a female magistrate that you cannot speak law as it is written in your laws, how can you be magistrate at all. For me a magistrate will judge and sentence. No magistrate has to impale anyone by himself nor has he to take care ... he speaks law, there are guards who will execute the sentence.
Imagine me right now looking at you, because if you are biased by gender while doing your work, how can you do a good job ?
Rayah Marenwolf:
[15:53] Rayah (rayah.marenwolf): I say he receive a trial....isnt there something more worse then death , slavery" whispers not wanting to see him killed before her although treachery was punishable with the spike and hanging "why do we not hear why he protests? questions
[15:55] Anarch Allegiere shook his head at Rayah: "The time for such civilities is not now... We are at war and under direct threat. It's men like him who threaten our very existence and looking at what they did to the village, I doubt they would spare us much generosities either. No, the Warriors are right. This man deserves to die," and most in the crowd seemed to agree. Anarch pulled his blade from it's sheath and brought it to the man's throat: "Got any last words, traitor?" - Anarch stared down at the man with indifference as the tip of his blade pressed against the man's neck.
Gorean Men are more decisive when it comes to death sentences I am saying, A woman is some what more emotional and will exhaust all avenues before having one killed, is what I meant by that, of course women even as magistrates does not make me for example cold hearted , or a man......
[15:53] Rayah (rayah.marenwolf): I say he receive a trial....isnt there something more worse then death , slavery" whispers not wanting to see him killed before her although treachery was punishable with the spike and hanging "why do we not hear why he protests? questions
[15:55] Anarch Allegiere shook his head at Rayah: "The time for such civilities is not now... We are at war and under direct threat. It's men like him who threaten our very existence and looking at what they did to the village, I doubt they would spare us much generosities either. No, the Warriors are right. This man deserves to die," and most in the crowd seemed to agree. Anarch pulled his blade from it's sheath and brought it to the man's throat: "Got any last words, traitor?" - Anarch stared down at the man with indifference as the tip of his blade pressed against the man's neck.
Gorean Men are more decisive when it comes to death sentences I am saying, A woman is some what more emotional and will exhaust all avenues before having one killed, is what I meant by that, of course women even as magistrates does not make me for example cold hearted , or a man......
BlitheBlue Resident:
As usual, I've been lurking but watching this thread with curiousity. There are two issues here, the first being playability and the second being Gorean ethos, and I don't think the latter should be dictated by the former.
It can be frustrating to have roleplay hamstrung by the lack of appropriate characters to fill a role, but in the end there are both OOC and IC ways around this. I had this very debate with some folks recently, and we found ways to move the roleplay.
The second issue of Gorean ethos should be the main consideration here. Just because it is not explicitly written in the books that there were not female magistrates does not mean the Gorean ethos would support it. After all, it is not explicitly written in the books that there were not rune priestesses or female members of the black caste, but we can draw a logical inference given the contextual clues of over thirty books in the series that these things would not have been supported by the Gorean ethos. Similarly, just because something happened in the books and is written about doesn't mean it is supported by the Gorean ethos either. The best example is the Tatrix of Tharna, which is a tale not included to demonstrate the power of women as rulers on Gor, but rather to demonstrate that in the Gorean view, women are inherently and biologically slaves to their emotions, needs and desires (something which is explicitly stated many places), and are therefore inherently corruptable. The condition under which free women are permitted by men to keep their freedom is the "unnatural" control or suppression of these things. If they are displayed, a woman is deemed "collarable" and the judge is, of course, men, who in the Gorean mindset naturally have the ability to control and suppress emotions, needs and desires.
Considering this, I don't think the Gorean ethos supports the idea of women acting as magistrates. This view might not be popular, but I think it's Gorean, which is the point, no? :)
As usual, I've been lurking but watching this thread with curiousity. There are two issues here, the first being playability and the second being Gorean ethos, and I don't think the latter should be dictated by the former.
It can be frustrating to have roleplay hamstrung by the lack of appropriate characters to fill a role, but in the end there are both OOC and IC ways around this. I had this very debate with some folks recently, and we found ways to move the roleplay.
The second issue of Gorean ethos should be the main consideration here. Just because it is not explicitly written in the books that there were not female magistrates does not mean the Gorean ethos would support it. After all, it is not explicitly written in the books that there were not rune priestesses or female members of the black caste, but we can draw a logical inference given the contextual clues of over thirty books in the series that these things would not have been supported by the Gorean ethos. Similarly, just because something happened in the books and is written about doesn't mean it is supported by the Gorean ethos either. The best example is the Tatrix of Tharna, which is a tale not included to demonstrate the power of women as rulers on Gor, but rather to demonstrate that in the Gorean view, women are inherently and biologically slaves to their emotions, needs and desires (something which is explicitly stated many places), and are therefore inherently corruptable. The condition under which free women are permitted by men to keep their freedom is the "unnatural" control or suppression of these things. If they are displayed, a woman is deemed "collarable" and the judge is, of course, men, who in the Gorean mindset naturally have the ability to control and suppress emotions, needs and desires.
Considering this, I don't think the Gorean ethos supports the idea of women acting as magistrates. This view might not be popular, but I think it's Gorean, which is the point, no? :)
Junea Demonia:
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 03. April 2013, 18:13:32
[15:53] Rayah (rayah.marenwolf): I say he receive a trial....isnt there something more worse then death , slavery" whispers not wanting to see him killed before her although treachery was punishable with the spike and hanging "why do we not hear why he protests? questions
Gorean Men are more decisive when it comes to death sentences I am saying, A woman is some what more emotional and will exhaust all avenues before having one killed, is what I meant by that, of course women even as magistrates does not make me for example cold hearted , or a man......
I think you are dead wrong about that. If a gorean woman made it to the position of magistrate - she would be there for a reason. She would be expected to hand out appropriate sentences and not whisper and be hesitant to apply the law. If she was that hesitant - I do not see her lasting for one day.
I do not think gorean women in general are portrayed and timid about death and hurting people.
If you play the role like this - I believe that is a problem and your character would not be in that position for a long time - simply for IC reasons.
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 03. April 2013, 18:13:32
[15:53] Rayah (rayah.marenwolf): I say he receive a trial....isnt there something more worse then death , slavery" whispers not wanting to see him killed before her although treachery was punishable with the spike and hanging "why do we not hear why he protests? questions
Gorean Men are more decisive when it comes to death sentences I am saying, A woman is some what more emotional and will exhaust all avenues before having one killed, is what I meant by that, of course women even as magistrates does not make me for example cold hearted , or a man......
I think you are dead wrong about that. If a gorean woman made it to the position of magistrate - she would be there for a reason. She would be expected to hand out appropriate sentences and not whisper and be hesitant to apply the law. If she was that hesitant - I do not see her lasting for one day.
I do not think gorean women in general are portrayed and timid about death and hurting people.
If you play the role like this - I believe that is a problem and your character would not be in that position for a long time - simply for IC reasons.
Junea Demonia:
Quote from: BlitheBlue Resident on 03. April 2013, 18:38:48
Considering this, I don't think the Gorean ethos supports the idea of women acting as magistrates. This view might not be popular, but I think it's Gorean, which is the point, no? :)
It can be the point - does not have to be.
There are plenty of sims out there who stretch what is gorean for different reasons. If I go to a sim and the rules allow that rule - I am not questioning the way the play with throwing out book quotes. It is up to them to make their own rules.
If we discuss strictly if the role would have been possible in the books according to JN - that is a different story.
Quote from: BlitheBlue Resident on 03. April 2013, 18:38:48
Considering this, I don't think the Gorean ethos supports the idea of women acting as magistrates. This view might not be popular, but I think it's Gorean, which is the point, no? :)
It can be the point - does not have to be.
There are plenty of sims out there who stretch what is gorean for different reasons. If I go to a sim and the rules allow that rule - I am not questioning the way the play with throwing out book quotes. It is up to them to make their own rules.
If we discuss strictly if the role would have been possible in the books according to JN - that is a different story.
BlitheBlue Resident:
There are plenty of sims out there who stretch what is gorean for different reasons. If I go to a sim and the rules allow that rule - I am not questioning the way the play with throwing out book quotes. It is up to them to make their own rules.
If we discuss strictly if the role would have been possible in the books according to JN - that is a different story.
You're right, there are lots of applications for Gorean roleplay. Even Star Wars Gor (!) But I was referring to my earlier premise that Gorean roleplay should be guided by a depth of understanding of what is Gorean as portrayed in the books rather than playability issues. I'm book-thumperly like that. ;)
There are plenty of sims out there who stretch what is gorean for different reasons. If I go to a sim and the rules allow that rule - I am not questioning the way the play with throwing out book quotes. It is up to them to make their own rules.
If we discuss strictly if the role would have been possible in the books according to JN - that is a different story.
You're right, there are lots of applications for Gorean roleplay. Even Star Wars Gor (!) But I was referring to my earlier premise that Gorean roleplay should be guided by a depth of understanding of what is Gorean as portrayed in the books rather than playability issues. I'm book-thumperly like that. ;)
Rayah Marenwolf:
I play my character very strong, but the situation there was Anarch was Ubar and we were in a civil war, so, you have to use common sense, how much can I say? You really do not have much power in that time, I was given the respect to even speak, as it was up to the Ubar if he lives or dies, I could of been killed for speaking actually so it took alot of courage, a very difficult situation, but if it was a trial I would give the death sentence , but all would be heard before decision, I felt that citizen deserved a trial but the Ubar did not he was more decisive, being a gorean man , a red caste
I play my character very strong, but the situation there was Anarch was Ubar and we were in a civil war, so, you have to use common sense, how much can I say? You really do not have much power in that time, I was given the respect to even speak, as it was up to the Ubar if he lives or dies, I could of been killed for speaking actually so it took alot of courage, a very difficult situation, but if it was a trial I would give the death sentence , but all would be heard before decision, I felt that citizen deserved a trial but the Ubar did not he was more decisive, being a gorean man , a red caste
Raven:
The problem is that people keep applying Earth standards to the Gor books. Don't forget we are not talking about a modern society but a patriarchal, chauvanistic one which JN has said is diametrically opposed to the one we all live in. Gor was in many ways similar to Ancient Rome, with some Viking and Feudal Japan traditions thrown in. That and the books vs. SL Gor are very different on many points.
The problem is that people keep applying Earth standards to the Gor books. Don't forget we are not talking about a modern society but a patriarchal, chauvanistic one which JN has said is diametrically opposed to the one we all live in. Gor was in many ways similar to Ancient Rome, with some Viking and Feudal Japan traditions thrown in. That and the books vs. SL Gor are very different on many points.
Hope Dreier:
Lots of things going on here and I;m not going to deal with all of them. The key issue here is delegated authority, this exists at all levels of any society. Going to a very specific case let us examine the military of the world. In any military there are two kinds of leaders, one kind draws its authority from the state these are usually refereed to as Commissioned Officers- they have been commissioned by the State . Now usually there are not enough of these Commissioned Officers to do all the necessary duties, so they delegate some of their authority to others. These are called Non-commissioned Officers - their authority is derived from the authority of the Commissioned Officers to whom they are responsible.
Now let us examine the Magistrate, a Magistrate draws his or her authority directly from the State, in the person of the Ubar or from the City Council who approved his appointment. This authority is the direct authority of the State, not the individual so appointed, but the state. It is highly unlikely that a very senior scribe, such as would be appointed as magistrate, is going to be able to even defend him/herself against even a mediocre warrior, none the less that Magistrate acting within the scope of his/her duty is the one in charge. The issue is not that the Magistrate is personally more powerful than that warrior, but that the authority that is represented is the authority of the state, infinitely or at least overpoweringly stronger than any individual. Male or female the authority is that of the state.
Lots of things going on here and I;m not going to deal with all of them. The key issue here is delegated authority, this exists at all levels of any society. Going to a very specific case let us examine the military of the world. In any military there are two kinds of leaders, one kind draws its authority from the state these are usually refereed to as Commissioned Officers- they have been commissioned by the State . Now usually there are not enough of these Commissioned Officers to do all the necessary duties, so they delegate some of their authority to others. These are called Non-commissioned Officers - their authority is derived from the authority of the Commissioned Officers to whom they are responsible.
Now let us examine the Magistrate, a Magistrate draws his or her authority directly from the State, in the person of the Ubar or from the City Council who approved his appointment. This authority is the direct authority of the State, not the individual so appointed, but the state. It is highly unlikely that a very senior scribe, such as would be appointed as magistrate, is going to be able to even defend him/herself against even a mediocre warrior, none the less that Magistrate acting within the scope of his/her duty is the one in charge. The issue is not that the Magistrate is personally more powerful than that warrior, but that the authority that is represented is the authority of the state, infinitely or at least overpoweringly stronger than any individual. Male or female the authority is that of the state.
BlitheBlue Resident:
The issue is not that the Magistrate is personally more powerful than that warrior, but that the authority that is represented is the authority of the state, infinitely or at least overpoweringly stronger than any individual. Male or female the authority is that of the state.
The power being weilded is that of authority to make independent decisions regarding the legal status of others. Its this use of independent judgement, even if granted by the state, that makes it a position of power. They are entrusted to weild this power because they would make objective, impartial judgements. A woman, being inherently corruptable in the Gorean mindset, would be dangerous and inappropriate in this role because the power vested in her by the state could be easily manipulated by others or even her own base motivations whereas a man would have the innate ability to resist/surpress those things and more responsibly weild that power.
The issue is not that the Magistrate is personally more powerful than that warrior, but that the authority that is represented is the authority of the state, infinitely or at least overpoweringly stronger than any individual. Male or female the authority is that of the state.
The power being weilded is that of authority to make independent decisions regarding the legal status of others. Its this use of independent judgement, even if granted by the state, that makes it a position of power. They are entrusted to weild this power because they would make objective, impartial judgements. A woman, being inherently corruptable in the Gorean mindset, would be dangerous and inappropriate in this role because the power vested in her by the state could be easily manipulated by others or even her own base motivations whereas a man would have the innate ability to resist/surpress those things and more responsibly weild that power.
Clovisb Resident:
Quote from: BlitheBlue Resident on 04. April 2013, 02:32:22
A woman, being inherently corruptable in the Gorean mindset, would be dangerous and inappropriate in this role because the power vested in her by the state could be easily manipulated by others or even her own base motivations whereas a man would have the innate ability to resist/surpress those things and more responsibly weild that power.
Where do people get this from?
There are more examples in the books of gorean men being manipulated or cock-collared by women than the other way around...
Quote from: BlitheBlue Resident on 04. April 2013, 02:32:22
A woman, being inherently corruptable in the Gorean mindset, would be dangerous and inappropriate in this role because the power vested in her by the state could be easily manipulated by others or even her own base motivations whereas a man would have the innate ability to resist/surpress those things and more responsibly weild that power.
Where do people get this from?
There are more examples in the books of gorean men being manipulated or cock-collared by women than the other way around...
Mercy Riiser:
Quote from: Mercy Riiser on 02. April 2013, 19:46:29
I do think that certain roles can be more difficult for a woman to fill in Gor than for a man just given the basics of what Gor is all about. But except for certain roles like warriors and a few others I don't see why a FW can't take on almost any role in SL. Given the reality of how many more women there in SL than men I think there is just a practical side to what it takes to run a sim. Obviously, a FW might get more bosk crap than a FM might get for taking on certain roles but I'd rather have a capable FW rp'ing as Magistrate handling issues BTB than an incompetent and lousy man rp'er in that same role. Just saying..... :)
I think I still agree with myself! ;D
Quote from: Mercy Riiser on 02. April 2013, 19:46:29
I do think that certain roles can be more difficult for a woman to fill in Gor than for a man just given the basics of what Gor is all about. But except for certain roles like warriors and a few others I don't see why a FW can't take on almost any role in SL. Given the reality of how many more women there in SL than men I think there is just a practical side to what it takes to run a sim. Obviously, a FW might get more bosk crap than a FM might get for taking on certain roles but I'd rather have a capable FW rp'ing as Magistrate handling issues BTB than an incompetent and lousy man rp'er in that same role. Just saying..... :)
I think I still agree with myself! ;D
BlitheBlue Resident:
Where do people get this from?
There are more examples in the books of gorean men being manipulated or cock-collared by women than the other way around...
I didn't make it up, I promise ;)
Where do people get this from?
There are more examples in the books of gorean men being manipulated or cock-collared by women than the other way around...
I didn't make it up, I promise ;)
Junea Demonia:
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 03. April 2013, 21:05:56
I play my character very strong, but the situation there was Anarch was Ubar and we were in a civil war, so, you have to use common sense, how much can I say? You really do not have much power in that time, I was given the respect to even speak, as it was up to the Ubar if he lives or dies, I could of been killed for speaking actually so it took alot of courage, a very difficult situation, but if it was a trial I would give the death sentence , but all would be heard before decision, I felt that citizen deserved a trial but the Ubar did not he was more decisive, being a gorean man , a red caste
That sounds to me like a real clusterfuck of a situation. If there is a state of war and the Ubar makes such decisions - then there is no need for a magistrate. If the Ubar only uses you to do his bidding and he is the actual power behind the decisions - then he uses you (the magistrate) as some sort of pawn he can control easily. Nothing wrong with that IC situations - if that is what you were going for.
Also - why would you as the magistrate, obviously used to handing out sentences and in Gor also death sentences, silently whisper to safe some person's life who is guilty and the Ubar who has so much power over you obviously wants the guy dead? Its just a bit of a clusterfuck to be honest....
If I played a female magistrate - I would play her as fully conscious of the difficult situation she is in. She would make sure not to show any public weakness, she would be quicker to judge, more harsh, more knowledgable about the law - for the simple reason that she would have to put up that front in order to be taken seriously in her job. Of course, it does not have to be played like that - but I think that would be the most fun for me - and the most realistic. I doubt if anyone would ever see more of my magistrate girl then her eyes, actually - cold, calculating, merciless eyes :)
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 03. April 2013, 21:05:56
I play my character very strong, but the situation there was Anarch was Ubar and we were in a civil war, so, you have to use common sense, how much can I say? You really do not have much power in that time, I was given the respect to even speak, as it was up to the Ubar if he lives or dies, I could of been killed for speaking actually so it took alot of courage, a very difficult situation, but if it was a trial I would give the death sentence , but all would be heard before decision, I felt that citizen deserved a trial but the Ubar did not he was more decisive, being a gorean man , a red caste
That sounds to me like a real clusterfuck of a situation. If there is a state of war and the Ubar makes such decisions - then there is no need for a magistrate. If the Ubar only uses you to do his bidding and he is the actual power behind the decisions - then he uses you (the magistrate) as some sort of pawn he can control easily. Nothing wrong with that IC situations - if that is what you were going for.
Also - why would you as the magistrate, obviously used to handing out sentences and in Gor also death sentences, silently whisper to safe some person's life who is guilty and the Ubar who has so much power over you obviously wants the guy dead? Its just a bit of a clusterfuck to be honest....
If I played a female magistrate - I would play her as fully conscious of the difficult situation she is in. She would make sure not to show any public weakness, she would be quicker to judge, more harsh, more knowledgable about the law - for the simple reason that she would have to put up that front in order to be taken seriously in her job. Of course, it does not have to be played like that - but I think that would be the most fun for me - and the most realistic. I doubt if anyone would ever see more of my magistrate girl then her eyes, actually - cold, calculating, merciless eyes :)
Caranda Schreiner:
In the books? No. In SL? Unfortunately necessary because of the male/female avie imbalance.
In the books? No. In SL? Unfortunately necessary because of the male/female avie imbalance.
Rayah Marenwolf:
Someone said to me once, it is hard to maintain a strong and powerful monarch in gor as a free woman and still show some soft qualities that would be attractive to the gorean male, to know her place, its a hard role to play, i can not show merciless eyes or be crual, I need to be with honour, loyalty and integrity and to show respect to the gorean free man......but in the end im still a woman , I am senstive, I cannot be a sterotype of the books, and even with pride I would admit I need a free man, that is why even as magistrate I am a ward, becasue the truth is in gor the free woman is nothing without the sword of the free man to keep her free......as Mercy said a hard role to play, that not many take upon themselves
Someone said to me once, it is hard to maintain a strong and powerful monarch in gor as a free woman and still show some soft qualities that would be attractive to the gorean male, to know her place, its a hard role to play, i can not show merciless eyes or be crual, I need to be with honour, loyalty and integrity and to show respect to the gorean free man......but in the end im still a woman , I am senstive, I cannot be a sterotype of the books, and even with pride I would admit I need a free man, that is why even as magistrate I am a ward, becasue the truth is in gor the free woman is nothing without the sword of the free man to keep her free......as Mercy said a hard role to play, that not many take upon themselves
Junea Demonia:
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 04. April 2013, 21:58:26
See a magistrate of kaelus said to me, it is hard to maintain a strong and powerful monarch in gor as a free woman and still show some soft qualities that would be attractive to the gorean male, to know her place, its a hard role to play, i can not show merciless eyes or be crual, I need to be with honour, loyalty and integrity and to show respect to the gorean free man......but in the end im still a woman , I am senstive, I cannot be a sterotype of the books, and even with pride I would admit I need a free man, that is why even as magistrate I am a ward, becasue the truth is in gor the free woman is nothing without the sword of the free man to keep her free......as Mercy said a hard role to play, that not many take upon themselves
If your character wants to be attractive to "the gorean male" - she is slave material. If you want to be pretty, feminine, attractive, soft, for a man, you best make sure that is your FC and you do it behind closed doors. Maybe do some research on gorean free women and their desire to be attractive to men - and how that is regarded in the gorean world?
If you insist so much on "still being a woman" and having to "respect" the gorean man in all circumstances - then how could you possibly pass judgement over a gorean man. By that logic, you make your own role implausible.
Sure - you can need a man in your life. Find a free companion. But that would have nothing to do with your profession as magistrate. And gorean fw who "need" a man....goes back to wanting to be attractive and all to men...dangerous territory for a free woman.
I don't know - I just do not see a gorean free woman in such a position as worried about appearing attractive, soft, pretty or feminine to the male world. I believe when she does her job those things would have to take a serious backseat or she would not be in that position for very long.
Even in our feminist world - as a female leader one often still has to be extra tough, extra strong, extra decisive, extra smart - to get the same respect a male leader gets. In the gorean world that would be true 100 times over.
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 04. April 2013, 21:58:26
See a magistrate of kaelus said to me, it is hard to maintain a strong and powerful monarch in gor as a free woman and still show some soft qualities that would be attractive to the gorean male, to know her place, its a hard role to play, i can not show merciless eyes or be crual, I need to be with honour, loyalty and integrity and to show respect to the gorean free man......but in the end im still a woman , I am senstive, I cannot be a sterotype of the books, and even with pride I would admit I need a free man, that is why even as magistrate I am a ward, becasue the truth is in gor the free woman is nothing without the sword of the free man to keep her free......as Mercy said a hard role to play, that not many take upon themselves
If your character wants to be attractive to "the gorean male" - she is slave material. If you want to be pretty, feminine, attractive, soft, for a man, you best make sure that is your FC and you do it behind closed doors. Maybe do some research on gorean free women and their desire to be attractive to men - and how that is regarded in the gorean world?
If you insist so much on "still being a woman" and having to "respect" the gorean man in all circumstances - then how could you possibly pass judgement over a gorean man. By that logic, you make your own role implausible.
Sure - you can need a man in your life. Find a free companion. But that would have nothing to do with your profession as magistrate. And gorean fw who "need" a man....goes back to wanting to be attractive and all to men...dangerous territory for a free woman.
I don't know - I just do not see a gorean free woman in such a position as worried about appearing attractive, soft, pretty or feminine to the male world. I believe when she does her job those things would have to take a serious backseat or she would not be in that position for very long.
Even in our feminist world - as a female leader one often still has to be extra tough, extra strong, extra decisive, extra smart - to get the same respect a male leader gets. In the gorean world that would be true 100 times over.
Meri Slade:
I would see a female Magistrate as a "Judge Judy" type personality. Tough, blunt, strongly opinionated. She can still be a companion or even a loving, soft woman behind the scenes, but in that position she'd have to work harder at being tougher, and even more prepared to prove that she can hand down the harder sentences than men are. She'd have that much to prove, constantly.
I would see a female Magistrate as a "Judge Judy" type personality. Tough, blunt, strongly opinionated. She can still be a companion or even a loving, soft woman behind the scenes, but in that position she'd have to work harder at being tougher, and even more prepared to prove that she can hand down the harder sentences than men are. She'd have that much to prove, constantly.
Meri Slade:
Quote from: Caranda Schreiner on 04. April 2013, 09:55:01
In the books? No. In SL? Unfortunately necessary because of the male/female avie imbalance.
And...this. Which supports my first post.
Quote from: Caranda Schreiner on 04. April 2013, 09:55:01
In the books? No. In SL? Unfortunately necessary because of the male/female avie imbalance.
And...this. Which supports my first post.
Junea Demonia:
Quote from: Meri Slade on 05. April 2013, 04:50:09
I would see a female Magistrate as a "Judge Judy" type personality. Tough, blunt, strongly opinionated. She can still be a companion or even a loving, soft woman behind the scenes, but in that position she'd have to work harder at being tougher, and even more prepared to prove that she can hand down the harder sentences than men are. She'd have that much to prove, constantly.
Yes, very much this!
I also do not see it as a contradiction to be one way on the job - and to be different privately. Don't most people do that? I know I am very different at work - and before I decided to be a "kept woman" and had quite a few people working for me - I very much "played the boss role" at work.
Quote from: Meri Slade on 05. April 2013, 04:50:09
I would see a female Magistrate as a "Judge Judy" type personality. Tough, blunt, strongly opinionated. She can still be a companion or even a loving, soft woman behind the scenes, but in that position she'd have to work harder at being tougher, and even more prepared to prove that she can hand down the harder sentences than men are. She'd have that much to prove, constantly.
Yes, very much this!
I also do not see it as a contradiction to be one way on the job - and to be different privately. Don't most people do that? I know I am very different at work - and before I decided to be a "kept woman" and had quite a few people working for me - I very much "played the boss role" at work.
Clovisb Resident:
So ... what the fuck were all these goreans doing who lived in cities ruled by Tatrices?
So ... what the fuck were all these goreans doing who lived in cities ruled by Tatrices?
Conall DeCuir:
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 05. April 2013, 10:11:48
So ... what the fuck were all these goreans doing who lived in cities ruled by Tatrices?
They lived a pretty normal live as most would not have been affected (except we are talking of tharna). I would imagine the red caste being more hollow, as the city would have been led not by men. I could also imagine that to proud red caste officers would have been removed from their positions and even their life as a tatrix would have to take to good care about her own neck and would be surrounded only by men who who would have pledged to her. Children born into such a city wouldnt know any difference and would take female leadership as normal and after 100 years all the taverns would have been replaced by tea houses.
Quote from: Clovisb Resident on 05. April 2013, 10:11:48
So ... what the fuck were all these goreans doing who lived in cities ruled by Tatrices?
They lived a pretty normal live as most would not have been affected (except we are talking of tharna). I would imagine the red caste being more hollow, as the city would have been led not by men. I could also imagine that to proud red caste officers would have been removed from their positions and even their life as a tatrix would have to take to good care about her own neck and would be surrounded only by men who who would have pledged to her. Children born into such a city wouldnt know any difference and would take female leadership as normal and after 100 years all the taverns would have been replaced by tea houses.
BlitheBlue Resident:
The Tatrix of Tharna was a parable about corruption... political and cultural corruption resulting from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler. Our hapless heroes, Tarl and Kron, right these wrongs, reverse the order, cast FW from their walls and enslave the rest. The Tatrix remains in place during the revolt but she is placed beneath male authority behind the scenes. And they lived happily ever after ;P
The Tatrix of Tharna was a parable about corruption... political and cultural corruption resulting from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler. Our hapless heroes, Tarl and Kron, right these wrongs, reverse the order, cast FW from their walls and enslave the rest. The Tatrix remains in place during the revolt but she is placed beneath male authority behind the scenes. And they lived happily ever after ;P
Rayah Marenwolf:
The power of free women, of course, rests ultimately on the might of men.
. . .
Were it not for men, free women would be as powerless as slave girls.
Witness of Gor Book 26 Page 435
Being a magistrate would not mean I am able to control men, in the end I still have the threat of a collar, I am hired and given the job by men, and I better not mess up, I will resign to the fact possibly it is better for a man to be the HEAD or HIGH of the caste of scribes, as magistrates of the castes of scribes......the point is we have to be proficient in the laws and scrolls, but any way, I am not so concerned with titles, possibly HEADS of castes which is being discussed could be men that may seem much more gorean, for me titles are not what is important, the fisherman may have more knowledge, honour and values than the man that holds Ubar over his head...it is the way one carries themselves, their behaviour, their values that matters, and even a woman in a high position must always know how to act around gorean men, with respect.....dignity and pride
The power of free women, of course, rests ultimately on the might of men.
. . .
Were it not for men, free women would be as powerless as slave girls.
Witness of Gor Book 26 Page 435
Being a magistrate would not mean I am able to control men, in the end I still have the threat of a collar, I am hired and given the job by men, and I better not mess up, I will resign to the fact possibly it is better for a man to be the HEAD or HIGH of the caste of scribes, as magistrates of the castes of scribes......the point is we have to be proficient in the laws and scrolls, but any way, I am not so concerned with titles, possibly HEADS of castes which is being discussed could be men that may seem much more gorean, for me titles are not what is important, the fisherman may have more knowledge, honour and values than the man that holds Ubar over his head...it is the way one carries themselves, their behaviour, their values that matters, and even a woman in a high position must always know how to act around gorean men, with respect.....dignity and pride
Clovisb Resident:
Quote from: BlitheBlue Resident on 05. April 2013, 15:55:26
The Tatrix of Tharna was a parable about corruption... political and cultural corruption resulting from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler. Our hapless heroes, Tarl and Kron, right these wrongs, reverse the order, cast FW from their walls and enslave the rest. The Tatrix remains in place during the revolt but she is placed beneath male authority behind the scenes. And they lived happily ever after ;P
What about the Tatrices and sole Ubara's of Corcyrus, Olni and even Ar? Even in post-revolt Tharna where the overturning of gynocracy was done rather violently and by the enslavement of essentially all women, the former Tatrix, Lara, remained as city administrator (an elected position) until she abdicated of her own free will. It would be unfair to ignore the fact that prior to the Tarl's encounter with these women, the history told speaks of many years of their rule.
Women have a tendency of exaggurating the submissiveness and dependance upon men in Gor. That is what I suspect is somewhat of a personal bias of how some women and presumably some men would like to experience Gor. But sorry... It's simply not correct and it is as said above, unfair to simply denote every single example of Free Women with power and authority as an exception when there is a multitude of examples.
Quote from: BlitheBlue Resident on 05. April 2013, 15:55:26
The Tatrix of Tharna was a parable about corruption... political and cultural corruption resulting from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler. Our hapless heroes, Tarl and Kron, right these wrongs, reverse the order, cast FW from their walls and enslave the rest. The Tatrix remains in place during the revolt but she is placed beneath male authority behind the scenes. And they lived happily ever after ;P
What about the Tatrices and sole Ubara's of Corcyrus, Olni and even Ar? Even in post-revolt Tharna where the overturning of gynocracy was done rather violently and by the enslavement of essentially all women, the former Tatrix, Lara, remained as city administrator (an elected position) until she abdicated of her own free will. It would be unfair to ignore the fact that prior to the Tarl's encounter with these women, the history told speaks of many years of their rule.
Women have a tendency of exaggurating the submissiveness and dependance upon men in Gor. That is what I suspect is somewhat of a personal bias of how some women and presumably some men would like to experience Gor. But sorry... It's simply not correct and it is as said above, unfair to simply denote every single example of Free Women with power and authority as an exception when there is a multitude of examples.
BlitheBlue Resident:
Women have a tendency of exaggurating the submissiveness and dependance upon men in Gor. That is what I suspect is somewhat of a personal bias of how some women and presumably some men would like to experience Gor.
You had a good retort in the works until this bit, which discounts the possibility that perhaps there are differences of interpretation of the philosophical tenets Norman presents, and that it might have less to do with how we would like to experience roleplay and more with what intellectual schema it's placed in. Some people think about this stuff rather than just make it up :)
Women have a tendency of exaggurating the submissiveness and dependance upon men in Gor. That is what I suspect is somewhat of a personal bias of how some women and presumably some men would like to experience Gor.
You had a good retort in the works until this bit, which discounts the possibility that perhaps there are differences of interpretation of the philosophical tenets Norman presents, and that it might have less to do with how we would like to experience roleplay and more with what intellectual schema it's placed in. Some people think about this stuff rather than just make it up :)
Aphris Myoo:
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 05. April 2013, 15:59:27
The power of free women, of course, rests ultimately on the might of men.
. . .
Were it not for men, free women would be as powerless as slave girls.
Witness of Gor Book 26 Page 435
This can be vey well true. And it counts for Earth too in the not even that far past.
But men never form one front against women. And a smart Tatrix can play Divide et Impera. Giving favors to one, then to another. Manipulating men who want come to power through her. Interesting in this way is how Catherine the Great came to power and used her lovers to rule after that.
Quote from: Rayah Marenwolf on 05. April 2013, 15:59:27
The power of free women, of course, rests ultimately on the might of men.
. . .
Were it not for men, free women would be as powerless as slave girls.
Witness of Gor Book 26 Page 435
This can be vey well true. And it counts for Earth too in the not even that far past.
But men never form one front against women. And a smart Tatrix can play Divide et Impera. Giving favors to one, then to another. Manipulating men who want come to power through her. Interesting in this way is how Catherine the Great came to power and used her lovers to rule after that.
Rayah Marenwolf:
I will say though Praetor should be a free man's position...isnt that a red caste, he would take the place of the admin if hes missing?
I will say though Praetor should be a free man's position...isnt that a red caste, he would take the place of the admin if hes missing?
Badeddy resident:
In a previous post I said a women ending up magistrate would deserve a medal and while I agree its absolutely not impossible it happen, I still believe in what I said but I would also add, in a real setting, anyone who manage to become magistrate would deserve that medal.
Its not the everyday job. For anyone in that line of work we can assume its the achievement of a life time to become magistrate. I can't even start to imagine how competitive it must be to access this position and stay there. Surely, a lot of very qualified people never make it that high in the legal food chain cause we don't need very many Magistrate.
Now for a women to get it. Sure, why not but I think she will be one Hell of a women. I think she should be very well positioned and already influent and able to play her card very well. Even on Earth there is those women who manage to get top position in domains where we usually see only men but often it was harder for her to get there than it would have been if she was a man.
In Gor, if you are one of those who get to see all those applications from new people in the city. Its amazing to see how many apply for Magistrate. Its probably 1 out of every 3-4 scribe application. Whatever they are women or men, I think very few who give the kind of RP that reflect the character a magistrate should be (IMO). So if a women does it well, great, lets give her the title so se can have a good magistrate for a change and lets not turn her away just because she is a women.
In a previous post I said a women ending up magistrate would deserve a medal and while I agree its absolutely not impossible it happen, I still believe in what I said but I would also add, in a real setting, anyone who manage to become magistrate would deserve that medal.
Its not the everyday job. For anyone in that line of work we can assume its the achievement of a life time to become magistrate. I can't even start to imagine how competitive it must be to access this position and stay there. Surely, a lot of very qualified people never make it that high in the legal food chain cause we don't need very many Magistrate.
Now for a women to get it. Sure, why not but I think she will be one Hell of a women. I think she should be very well positioned and already influent and able to play her card very well. Even on Earth there is those women who manage to get top position in domains where we usually see only men but often it was harder for her to get there than it would have been if she was a man.
In Gor, if you are one of those who get to see all those applications from new people in the city. Its amazing to see how many apply for Magistrate. Its probably 1 out of every 3-4 scribe application. Whatever they are women or men, I think very few who give the kind of RP that reflect the character a magistrate should be (IMO). So if a women does it well, great, lets give her the title so se can have a good magistrate for a change and lets not turn her away just because she is a women.
Michelline Raymond:
I play a Magistrate in Gor. I am known as Rosaline Spiritor. I have read how some see women as 'emotional' and may not be able to handle the decision of putting a person to death. Rosaline is NOT that woman.
You see, to impale a person for committing a capital crime, is what the law requires. If a person breaks the laws, then consequences follow. Why would anyone pity a person who desecrates the symbolism of the Home Stone? Why would any Magistrate feel for a person who dishonors the Home Stone they swore to protect and defend? That's like saying it's alright to spit on/burn/desecrate the American flag. The same emotions Americans feel when our flag is tarnished, is amplified by a Gorean when it comes to their city.
Rosaline has impaled outlaws without blinking. Rosaline has tried collaring a few women for being an enemy of the city or a down right slut and men would be enraged with her decision (The sim owner would then step in OOCly and overturn the ruling after telling me OOCly that I need to be 'nicer'). Sorry, we know the rules, we know the dangers, we know the books (well, some of us do).
There really weren't 'courtroom trials'. In Explorers', a 'trial' was held right there on the street and sentences immediately handed down and enforced.
As far as being 'demure and soft' to catch a man's attention...no thanks. As strong as Rosaline is, she would need a man to be stronger than her or else he'd just be another trinket she plays with. She has Companioned some of the hardest of men, argued with them, felt the slave ring or a backhand...but she still remains Rosaline. She does sort of begin to watch her words and tone with them, to avoid the punishment she knows she'll get, but still maintains her ground. In the end though, she knows her Companion's word and decision is final.
Gorean men do like a bit of fire in their woman. Some love watching her get riled up and get a few laughs from the insults she comes up with. Rosaline is both loved and hated. Those who love her, love her strength and no nonsense attitude. Those who hate her, hate her mainly because she isn't a free woman who bows down easily. She has felt the collar a few times...but always regains her feet because men see her intelligence and usefulness as a Free Woman rather than a slave.
So, should a woman be a Magistrate in Gor? Yes. When you come across those men too weak to be men, sometimes you need that woman to show them how to grow a pair.
I play a Magistrate in Gor. I am known as Rosaline Spiritor. I have read how some see women as 'emotional' and may not be able to handle the decision of putting a person to death. Rosaline is NOT that woman.
You see, to impale a person for committing a capital crime, is what the law requires. If a person breaks the laws, then consequences follow. Why would anyone pity a person who desecrates the symbolism of the Home Stone? Why would any Magistrate feel for a person who dishonors the Home Stone they swore to protect and defend? That's like saying it's alright to spit on/burn/desecrate the American flag. The same emotions Americans feel when our flag is tarnished, is amplified by a Gorean when it comes to their city.
Rosaline has impaled outlaws without blinking. Rosaline has tried collaring a few women for being an enemy of the city or a down right slut and men would be enraged with her decision (The sim owner would then step in OOCly and overturn the ruling after telling me OOCly that I need to be 'nicer'). Sorry, we know the rules, we know the dangers, we know the books (well, some of us do).
There really weren't 'courtroom trials'. In Explorers', a 'trial' was held right there on the street and sentences immediately handed down and enforced.
As far as being 'demure and soft' to catch a man's attention...no thanks. As strong as Rosaline is, she would need a man to be stronger than her or else he'd just be another trinket she plays with. She has Companioned some of the hardest of men, argued with them, felt the slave ring or a backhand...but she still remains Rosaline. She does sort of begin to watch her words and tone with them, to avoid the punishment she knows she'll get, but still maintains her ground. In the end though, she knows her Companion's word and decision is final.
Gorean men do like a bit of fire in their woman. Some love watching her get riled up and get a few laughs from the insults she comes up with. Rosaline is both loved and hated. Those who love her, love her strength and no nonsense attitude. Those who hate her, hate her mainly because she isn't a free woman who bows down easily. She has felt the collar a few times...but always regains her feet because men see her intelligence and usefulness as a Free Woman rather than a slave.
So, should a woman be a Magistrate in Gor? Yes. When you come across those men too weak to be men, sometimes you need that woman to show them how to grow a pair.
Bastet Nyoki:
Quote from: Michelline Raymond on 08. April 2013, 09:38:11
I play a Magistrate in Gor. I am known as Rosaline Spiritor. I have read how some see women as 'emotional' and may not be able to handle the decision of putting a person to death. Rosaline is NOT that woman.
You see, to impale a person for committing a capital crime, is what the law requires. If a person breaks the laws, then consequences follow. Why would anyone pity a person who desecrates the symbolism of the Home Stone? Why would any Magistrate feel for a person who dishonors the Home Stone they swore to protect and defend? That's like saying it's alright to spit on/burn/desecrate the American flag. The same emotions Americans feel when our flag is tarnished, is amplified by a Gorean when it comes to their city.
Rosaline has impaled outlaws without blinking. Rosaline has tried collaring a few women for being an enemy of the city or a down right slut and men would be enraged with her decision (The sim owner would then step in OOCly and overturn the ruling after telling me OOCly that I need to be 'nicer'). Sorry, we know the rules, we know the dangers, we know the books (well, some of us do).
There really weren't 'courtroom trials'. In Explorers', a 'trial' was held right there on the street and sentences immediately handed down and enforced.
As far as being 'demure and soft' to catch a man's attention...no thanks. As strong as Rosaline is, she would need a man to be stronger than her or else he'd just be another trinket she plays with. She has Companioned some of the hardest of men, argued with them, felt the slave ring or a backhand...but she still remains Rosaline. She does sort of begin to watch her words and tone with them, to avoid the punishment she knows she'll get, but still maintains her ground. In the end though, she knows her Companion's word and decision is final.
Gorean men do like a bit of fire in their woman. Some love watching her get riled up and get a few laughs from the insults she comes up with. Rosaline is both loved and hated. Those who love her, love her strength and no nonsense attitude. Those who hate her, hate her mainly because she isn't a free woman who bows down easily. She has felt the collar a few times...but always regains her feet because men see her intelligence and usefulness as a Free Woman rather than a slave.
So, should a woman be a Magistrate in Gor? Yes. When you come across those men too weak to be men, sometimes you need that woman to show them how to grow a pair.
I'd really love to meet your character :)
Quote from: Michelline Raymond on 08. April 2013, 09:38:11
I play a Magistrate in Gor. I am known as Rosaline Spiritor. I have read how some see women as 'emotional' and may not be able to handle the decision of putting a person to death. Rosaline is NOT that woman.
You see, to impale a person for committing a capital crime, is what the law requires. If a person breaks the laws, then consequences follow. Why would anyone pity a person who desecrates the symbolism of the Home Stone? Why would any Magistrate feel for a person who dishonors the Home Stone they swore to protect and defend? That's like saying it's alright to spit on/burn/desecrate the American flag. The same emotions Americans feel when our flag is tarnished, is amplified by a Gorean when it comes to their city.
Rosaline has impaled outlaws without blinking. Rosaline has tried collaring a few women for being an enemy of the city or a down right slut and men would be enraged with her decision (The sim owner would then step in OOCly and overturn the ruling after telling me OOCly that I need to be 'nicer'). Sorry, we know the rules, we know the dangers, we know the books (well, some of us do).
There really weren't 'courtroom trials'. In Explorers', a 'trial' was held right there on the street and sentences immediately handed down and enforced.
As far as being 'demure and soft' to catch a man's attention...no thanks. As strong as Rosaline is, she would need a man to be stronger than her or else he'd just be another trinket she plays with. She has Companioned some of the hardest of men, argued with them, felt the slave ring or a backhand...but she still remains Rosaline. She does sort of begin to watch her words and tone with them, to avoid the punishment she knows she'll get, but still maintains her ground. In the end though, she knows her Companion's word and decision is final.
Gorean men do like a bit of fire in their woman. Some love watching her get riled up and get a few laughs from the insults she comes up with. Rosaline is both loved and hated. Those who love her, love her strength and no nonsense attitude. Those who hate her, hate her mainly because she isn't a free woman who bows down easily. She has felt the collar a few times...but always regains her feet because men see her intelligence and usefulness as a Free Woman rather than a slave.
So, should a woman be a Magistrate in Gor? Yes. When you come across those men too weak to be men, sometimes you need that woman to show them how to grow a pair.
I'd really love to meet your character :)
Raven:
Speaking of female Magistrates--RIP Margaret Thatcher.
Speaking of female Magistrates--RIP Margaret Thatcher.
Mercy Riiser:
She might better be viewed as a Tatrix...!
She might better be viewed as a Tatrix...!
Michelline Raymond:
Bastet, Rosaline can be found in Voltai Vikel as a Praetor...come on by!
Bastet, Rosaline can be found in Voltai Vikel as a Praetor...come on by!
Clovisb Resident:
The proper title for a female Praetor should probably be Praetrix
The proper title for a female Praetor should probably be Praetrix
Michelline Raymond:
Quote from: Mercy Riiser on 08. April 2013, 18:18:24
She might better be viewed as a Tatrix...!
LOL Mercy, is that to me?
Quote from: Mercy Riiser on 08. April 2013, 18:18:24
She might better be viewed as a Tatrix...!
LOL Mercy, is that to me?
Druhsus:
Quote from: Michelline Raymond on 08. April 2013, 23:49:04
Bastet, Rosaline can be found in Voltai Vikel as a Praetor...come on by!
Love your sim, even when roller coaster type tarn ride... from 3000 meters to 500 in seconds! NICE
Quote from: Michelline Raymond on 08. April 2013, 23:49:04
Bastet, Rosaline can be found in Voltai Vikel as a Praetor...come on by!
Love your sim, even when roller coaster type tarn ride... from 3000 meters to 500 in seconds! NICE
Triad Fallen:
Quote from: Raven on 08. April 2013, 15:31:19
Speaking of female Magistrates--RIP Margaret Thatcher.
May she rot in hell ;D
Quote from: Raven on 08. April 2013, 15:31:19
Speaking of female Magistrates--RIP Margaret Thatcher.
May she rot in hell ;D
Mercy Riiser:
Quote from: Michelline Raymond on 09. April 2013, 00:24:59
Quote from: Mercy Riiser on 08. April 2013, 18:18:24
She might better be viewed as a Tatrix...!
LOL Mercy, is that to me?
No...that was for the Thatcher! Our paths will cross in VV soon. :)
Quote from: Michelline Raymond on 09. April 2013, 00:24:59
Quote from: Mercy Riiser on 08. April 2013, 18:18:24
She might better be viewed as a Tatrix...!
LOL Mercy, is that to me?
No...that was for the Thatcher! Our paths will cross in VV soon. :)
Aphris Myoo:
Quote from: Triad Fallen on 09. April 2013, 03:14:02
Quote from: Raven on 08. April 2013, 15:31:19
Speaking of female Magistrates--RIP Margaret Thatcher.
May she rot in hell ;D
With an Argentinian as Pope she probably will. But without her, probably 50% of Brits would live in the hell of poverty and unemployment.
Quote from: Triad Fallen on 09. April 2013, 03:14:02
Quote from: Raven on 08. April 2013, 15:31:19
Speaking of female Magistrates--RIP Margaret Thatcher.
May she rot in hell ;D
With an Argentinian as Pope she probably will. But without her, probably 50% of Brits would live in the hell of poverty and unemployment.
Reverend Messmer:
I think female can't have any position of authority on Gor. It is again the logic of psychoevolutionisme. It may append but it is due social dysfonction... Female are by nature slave of men, not there master.
If the question is can female be magistrate on sl gor? Yes. Even in BTB sim, you need to adapt for making the RP possible. An example, you rarely see panthers enslaved or purely impaled after a failling raid. If you stick to the law being outlaws they should be kill or keep as slave.
I think female can't have any position of authority on Gor. It is again the logic of psychoevolutionisme. It may append but it is due social dysfonction... Female are by nature slave of men, not there master.
If the question is can female be magistrate on sl gor? Yes. Even in BTB sim, you need to adapt for making the RP possible. An example, you rarely see panthers enslaved or purely impaled after a failling raid. If you stick to the law being outlaws they should be kill or keep as slave.
Syndel Daviau:
Wow, Reverend... Arwan must be in trouble if you are the one who resolves their matters of law.
Are you serious? Women cannot have position of authority?
Ubaras, for instance are, in true, the SECOND to their Ubars. Let me educate a moment if you'd allow me.
"The throne of the Ubara of Ar," he said, "is empty."
They looked at one another.
"Thank you," she said, "Ubar."
"I will have all arrangements made," he said, "for your investiture as Ubara of Ar."
His men gasped. My men could not speak. I, too, was struck with silence.
To be Ubara of Ar was the most glorious thing to which a woman might aspire. It meant that she would be the richest and most powerful woman on Gor, that armies and navies, and tarn cavalries, could move upon her very word, that the taxes of an empire the wealthiest on Gor could be laid at her feet, that the most precious of gems and jewelries might be hers, that she would be the most envied woman on the planet.
Hunters of Gor
Wow, Reverend... Arwan must be in trouble if you are the one who resolves their matters of law.
Are you serious? Women cannot have position of authority?
Ubaras, for instance are, in true, the SECOND to their Ubars. Let me educate a moment if you'd allow me.
"The throne of the Ubara of Ar," he said, "is empty."
They looked at one another.
"Thank you," she said, "Ubar."
"I will have all arrangements made," he said, "for your investiture as Ubara of Ar."
His men gasped. My men could not speak. I, too, was struck with silence.
To be Ubara of Ar was the most glorious thing to which a woman might aspire. It meant that she would be the richest and most powerful woman on Gor, that armies and navies, and tarn cavalries, could move upon her very word, that the taxes of an empire the wealthiest on Gor could be laid at her feet, that the most precious of gems and jewelries might be hers, that she would be the most envied woman on the planet.
Hunters of Gor
Reverend Messmer:
Quote from: Syndel Daviau on 04. October 2013, 17:59:02
Wow, Reverend... Arwan must be in trouble if you are the one who resolves their matters of law.
Are you serious? Women cannot have position of authority?
Ubaras, for instance are, in true, the SECOND to their Ubars. Let me educate a moment if you'd allow me.
"The throne of the Ubara of Ar," he said, "is empty."
They looked at one another.
"Thank you," she said, "Ubar."
"I will have all arrangements made," he said, "for your investiture as Ubara of Ar."
His men gasped. My men could not speak. I, too, was struck with silence.
To be Ubara of Ar was the most glorious thing to which a woman might aspire. It meant that she would be the richest and most powerful woman on Gor, that armies and navies, and tarn cavalries, could move upon her very word, that the taxes of an empire the wealthiest on Gor could be laid at her feet, that the most precious of gems and jewelries might be hers, that she would be the most envied woman on the planet.
Hunters of Gor
Gor is writen as a phalocratic world keep in mind.
Except for Tharna and the Tatrix, you don't have any city directed by female for a long time. Even the tatrix recognize the supremacy of man in ordinary life in Outlaw of Gor at the end. She state that female should find a free companion or end in slavery.
Ok, female can have a shop, can sell good... But it is not position of high autority.
Ubara are the free companion of the Ubar. You will do what she say because the will of the ubara is backed by the autority of the ubar. He own the power, she just use it.
We also have no quotation that state female as active member of the high council in any normal city.
So my conclusion turn right. Female as Magistrate seem not possible on Gor like other high ranking position except ubara or tatrix. It is just in contradicton with the idea of psychoevolutionisme.
On Second Life, it is different. Female caracter got more freedom. I never stated female can't act as magistrate on SL Gor. I just state it is an adaptation. And I don't state that is wrong to do so.
When you read in the line. You see that female are clearly not equal to men on Gor. They are slave of men by nature. The fact some stay free is because it is conveniant.
Quote from: Syndel Daviau on 04. October 2013, 17:59:02
Wow, Reverend... Arwan must be in trouble if you are the one who resolves their matters of law.
Are you serious? Women cannot have position of authority?
Ubaras, for instance are, in true, the SECOND to their Ubars. Let me educate a moment if you'd allow me.
"The throne of the Ubara of Ar," he said, "is empty."
They looked at one another.
"Thank you," she said, "Ubar."
"I will have all arrangements made," he said, "for your investiture as Ubara of Ar."
His men gasped. My men could not speak. I, too, was struck with silence.
To be Ubara of Ar was the most glorious thing to which a woman might aspire. It meant that she would be the richest and most powerful woman on Gor, that armies and navies, and tarn cavalries, could move upon her very word, that the taxes of an empire the wealthiest on Gor could be laid at her feet, that the most precious of gems and jewelries might be hers, that she would be the most envied woman on the planet.
Hunters of Gor
Gor is writen as a phalocratic world keep in mind.
Except for Tharna and the Tatrix, you don't have any city directed by female for a long time. Even the tatrix recognize the supremacy of man in ordinary life in Outlaw of Gor at the end. She state that female should find a free companion or end in slavery.
Ok, female can have a shop, can sell good... But it is not position of high autority.
Ubara are the free companion of the Ubar. You will do what she say because the will of the ubara is backed by the autority of the ubar. He own the power, she just use it.
We also have no quotation that state female as active member of the high council in any normal city.
So my conclusion turn right. Female as Magistrate seem not possible on Gor like other high ranking position except ubara or tatrix. It is just in contradicton with the idea of psychoevolutionisme.
On Second Life, it is different. Female caracter got more freedom. I never stated female can't act as magistrate on SL Gor. I just state it is an adaptation. And I don't state that is wrong to do so.
When you read in the line. You see that female are clearly not equal to men on Gor. They are slave of men by nature. The fact some stay free is because it is conveniant.
Syndel Daviau:
Talena, daughter of Marlenus, was stand-alone Ubara of Ar in Witness of Gor, backed by the army of Cos.
Talena, daughter of Marlenus, was stand-alone Ubara of Ar in Witness of Gor, backed by the army of Cos.
Elle Couerblanc:
Quote from: Syndel Daviau on 04. October 2013, 19:24:25
Talena, daughter of Marlenus, was stand-alone Ubara of Ar in Witness of Gor, backed by the army of Cos.
Actually the conversation quoted was between Marlenus and Verna as he wanted her to return to Ar as his Companion. But yes, Talena was backed by the Cosians, for a good length of time it would seem too (what at least three books?) and purposely placed there by them. How I view her in this storyline was partly a true leader figure and partly a pawn for the Cosians to use to degrade the mighty Marlenus. Was she placed there by her own merit and ability to win the masses? Probably not but she knew how to get her way there by any means possible in my eyes. Kudos for her for manipulating the Cosians to her benefit. :)
I could see females as heads of castes but it would be a hard battle for her to achieve that spot; and one I would like to see with an IC progressive storyline into that role instead of the normal "welcome to your new gorean sim female role player and her is your key to the head of caste office". Probably more in the lower castes though than high castes too. But still I would think her "reign" would be tenuous at best and wraught with controversy. Definately some RP potential there if it's played within the spirt of the genre (the blatant sexism and misogynistic ways of some of the men in the culture) and the constant struggle a woman would face to be treated as a true leader.
Quote from: Syndel Daviau on 04. October 2013, 19:24:25
Talena, daughter of Marlenus, was stand-alone Ubara of Ar in Witness of Gor, backed by the army of Cos.
Actually the conversation quoted was between Marlenus and Verna as he wanted her to return to Ar as his Companion. But yes, Talena was backed by the Cosians, for a good length of time it would seem too (what at least three books?) and purposely placed there by them. How I view her in this storyline was partly a true leader figure and partly a pawn for the Cosians to use to degrade the mighty Marlenus. Was she placed there by her own merit and ability to win the masses? Probably not but she knew how to get her way there by any means possible in my eyes. Kudos for her for manipulating the Cosians to her benefit. :)
I could see females as heads of castes but it would be a hard battle for her to achieve that spot; and one I would like to see with an IC progressive storyline into that role instead of the normal "welcome to your new gorean sim female role player and her is your key to the head of caste office". Probably more in the lower castes though than high castes too. But still I would think her "reign" would be tenuous at best and wraught with controversy. Definately some RP potential there if it's played within the spirt of the genre (the blatant sexism and misogynistic ways of some of the men in the culture) and the constant struggle a woman would face to be treated as a true leader.
Syndel Daviau:
There's no relevance between who the conversation was. Could be between two children. The narrative about the power of the Ubara would remain the same. A woman in a leadership position. Which I was correcting the man who was saying there was no such thing.
Talena was in a position of power, presumed pawn or not. A Tatrix is another example of woman in position of power. Any Free Woman of High Caste is in a position of power upon her hired free men of low Caste, so on and so forth. It's all relative to situation. There's no ultimatums towards that. Globally the notion is that women are lesser but it's not always so, it depends very much on just who the woman is: life and death may be in her hands, after all.
Now I will stop derailing the thread! It's about magistrates haha!
There's no relevance between who the conversation was. Could be between two children. The narrative about the power of the Ubara would remain the same. A woman in a leadership position. Which I was correcting the man who was saying there was no such thing.
Talena was in a position of power, presumed pawn or not. A Tatrix is another example of woman in position of power. Any Free Woman of High Caste is in a position of power upon her hired free men of low Caste, so on and so forth. It's all relative to situation. There's no ultimatums towards that. Globally the notion is that women are lesser but it's not always so, it depends very much on just who the woman is: life and death may be in her hands, after all.
Now I will stop derailing the thread! It's about magistrates haha!
Elle Couerblanc:
@Syndel I was only saying who the conversation was between so others not as familiar with the books wouldn't take it as a reference to Talena. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to correct you :)
The point of my post was to agree with what you are ascerting in terms of the plausibility of a female leader in Gor. Where I think the role play possibilities are thrown out are with the insta titles that are given to often in SL Gor - both for women AND men. Why not let a woman vye for the role of magistrate? Why not allow her to RP out the possibilities of it being her biggest achievement or her biggest failure in terms of men finding a way to <insert sarcasm font> "bring her to her knees" so she can see MEN are truly the leaders of gor!!!
@Reverend psychoevolutionism or not is really not the point. If the males see some reason to put the woman in a position in which they "believe" they can ultimately control the decisions of a neutral party - why the hell not? They did with Tarna and maybe Talena as well. Why not make it more localized in terms of caste vs army or city control. For example, some members of the merchants want more of a say in the decisions regarding court rulings but they don't want to risk putting a man in place who might decide to do things his own way. He's a gorean man right? In the eyes of the Merchants, controlling a man might be more difficult than controlling a woman *cough*. If the RP is there to back up her progression up the ladder of her caste I could see it happen. Isn't Gor about power and control, even if it's on a civic level?
@Syndel I was only saying who the conversation was between so others not as familiar with the books wouldn't take it as a reference to Talena. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to correct you :)
The point of my post was to agree with what you are ascerting in terms of the plausibility of a female leader in Gor. Where I think the role play possibilities are thrown out are with the insta titles that are given to often in SL Gor - both for women AND men. Why not let a woman vye for the role of magistrate? Why not allow her to RP out the possibilities of it being her biggest achievement or her biggest failure in terms of men finding a way to <insert sarcasm font> "bring her to her knees" so she can see MEN are truly the leaders of gor!!!
@Reverend psychoevolutionism or not is really not the point. If the males see some reason to put the woman in a position in which they "believe" they can ultimately control the decisions of a neutral party - why the hell not? They did with Tarna and maybe Talena as well. Why not make it more localized in terms of caste vs army or city control. For example, some members of the merchants want more of a say in the decisions regarding court rulings but they don't want to risk putting a man in place who might decide to do things his own way. He's a gorean man right? In the eyes of the Merchants, controlling a man might be more difficult than controlling a woman *cough*. If the RP is there to back up her progression up the ladder of her caste I could see it happen. Isn't Gor about power and control, even if it's on a civic level?
Kail Lefevre:
Quote
The Tatrix of Tharna was a parable about corruption... political and cultural corruption resulting from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler. Our hapless heroes, Tarl and Kron, right these wrongs, reverse the order, cast FW from their walls and enslave the rest. The Tatrix remains in place during the revolt but she is placed beneath male authority behind the scenes. And they lived happily ever after ;P
Given that in the book the form of corruption in Outlaw of Gor took the form of replacing one Tatrix with another I fail to see your point. If the captain of Tharna had been installing the other Tatrix so he could control her then I might see it but in then end he knows he can't beat Tarl and stands to fight him giving his own life and risking the life of his own slave all to give his Tatrix time to escape. In the end he was a loyal lap dog, just to the wrong woman. Given that Goreans are loyal to a fault to their Home Stone and not to a person per-say it stands to reason that what happened with Tharna could of and likely has happened in a similar manner in other cities. Those with might dislike the current person in power and plot to replace them with some one in place to grab the power should the chance present it self.
Stating that this resulted from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler is incorrect. The corruption stems from how she ruled not that she had tits. When we meet Tatrix she is a selfish bitch that cares only for her self. She has forgotten her people, that she leads them for her benefit not for thier own. This more then any thing breeds resentment and corruption.
Then Tarl gives her his bone and she stops being a bitch and remembers that she has people that need taken care of and that she had allowed her own power to create a huge imbalance in her people. She shows in the kal-da house that she is willing and able to look after her people now and care about their needs by going around from table to table serving the men drink like a common woman. Which along with Tarl's words show that the men can now trust her again to look after them and right the wrongs and balance the scales.
If any thing I don't think the morale of this story is women in power breed corruption. I think the morale of this story is if you give a bitch a bone(r) that she'll behave.
Quote
The Tatrix of Tharna was a parable about corruption... political and cultural corruption resulting from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler. Our hapless heroes, Tarl and Kron, right these wrongs, reverse the order, cast FW from their walls and enslave the rest. The Tatrix remains in place during the revolt but she is placed beneath male authority behind the scenes. And they lived happily ever after ;P
Given that in the book the form of corruption in Outlaw of Gor took the form of replacing one Tatrix with another I fail to see your point. If the captain of Tharna had been installing the other Tatrix so he could control her then I might see it but in then end he knows he can't beat Tarl and stands to fight him giving his own life and risking the life of his own slave all to give his Tatrix time to escape. In the end he was a loyal lap dog, just to the wrong woman. Given that Goreans are loyal to a fault to their Home Stone and not to a person per-say it stands to reason that what happened with Tharna could of and likely has happened in a similar manner in other cities. Those with might dislike the current person in power and plot to replace them with some one in place to grab the power should the chance present it self.
Stating that this resulted from the "corruption" of the "natural order" of having a female ruler is incorrect. The corruption stems from how she ruled not that she had tits. When we meet Tatrix she is a selfish bitch that cares only for her self. She has forgotten her people, that she leads them for her benefit not for thier own. This more then any thing breeds resentment and corruption.
Then Tarl gives her his bone and she stops being a bitch and remembers that she has people that need taken care of and that she had allowed her own power to create a huge imbalance in her people. She shows in the kal-da house that she is willing and able to look after her people now and care about their needs by going around from table to table serving the men drink like a common woman. Which along with Tarl's words show that the men can now trust her again to look after them and right the wrongs and balance the scales.
If any thing I don't think the morale of this story is women in power breed corruption. I think the morale of this story is if you give a bitch a bone(r) that she'll behave.
Reverend Messmer:
Quote from: Elle Couerblanc on 04. October 2013, 21:34:03
@Syndel I was only saying who the conversation was between so others not as familiar with the books wouldn't take it as a reference to Talena. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to correct you :)
The point of my post was to agree with what you are ascerting in terms of the plausibility of a female leader in Gor. Where I think the role play possibilities are thrown out are with the insta titles that are given to often in SL Gor - both for women AND men. Why not let a woman vye for the role of magistrate? Why not allow her to RP out the possibilities of it being her biggest achievement or her biggest failure in terms of men finding a way to <insert sarcasm font> "bring her to her knees" so she can see MEN are truly the leaders of gor!!!
@Reverend psychoevolutionism or not is really not the point. If the males see some reason to put the woman in a position in which they "believe" they can ultimately control the decisions of a neutral party - why the hell not? They did with Tarna and maybe Talena as well. Why not make it more localized in terms of caste vs army or city control. For example, some members of the merchants want more of a say in the decisions regarding court rulings but they don't want to risk putting a man in place who might decide to do things his own way. He's a gorean man right? In the eyes of the Merchants, controlling a man might be more difficult than controlling a woman *cough*. If the RP is there to back up her progression up the ladder of her caste I could see it happen. Isn't Gor about power and control, even if it's on a civic level?
If you follow most of the story in the book the notion of equity between men and women is one of the weakness of Earth. Gorean men are considered superior to those of Earth for that specific reason in Norman work. It is BTB the morality of Gor. So female magistrate? Female juging male that are not Kajiru... Improbable.
In SL, possible, even BTB sim have some adaptation for making RP possible.
Quote from: Elle Couerblanc on 04. October 2013, 21:34:03
@Syndel I was only saying who the conversation was between so others not as familiar with the books wouldn't take it as a reference to Talena. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to correct you :)
The point of my post was to agree with what you are ascerting in terms of the plausibility of a female leader in Gor. Where I think the role play possibilities are thrown out are with the insta titles that are given to often in SL Gor - both for women AND men. Why not let a woman vye for the role of magistrate? Why not allow her to RP out the possibilities of it being her biggest achievement or her biggest failure in terms of men finding a way to <insert sarcasm font> "bring her to her knees" so she can see MEN are truly the leaders of gor!!!
@Reverend psychoevolutionism or not is really not the point. If the males see some reason to put the woman in a position in which they "believe" they can ultimately control the decisions of a neutral party - why the hell not? They did with Tarna and maybe Talena as well. Why not make it more localized in terms of caste vs army or city control. For example, some members of the merchants want more of a say in the decisions regarding court rulings but they don't want to risk putting a man in place who might decide to do things his own way. He's a gorean man right? In the eyes of the Merchants, controlling a man might be more difficult than controlling a woman *cough*. If the RP is there to back up her progression up the ladder of her caste I could see it happen. Isn't Gor about power and control, even if it's on a civic level?
If you follow most of the story in the book the notion of equity between men and women is one of the weakness of Earth. Gorean men are considered superior to those of Earth for that specific reason in Norman work. It is BTB the morality of Gor. So female magistrate? Female juging male that are not Kajiru... Improbable.
In SL, possible, even BTB sim have some adaptation for making RP possible.
Elle Couerblanc:
Quote from: Reverend Messmer on 05. October 2013, 17:34:53
Quote from: Elle Couerblanc on 04. October 2013, 21:34:03
@Syndel I was only saying who the conversation was between so others not as familiar with the books wouldn't take it as a reference to Talena. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to correct you :)
The point of my post was to agree with what you are ascerting in terms of the plausibility of a female leader in Gor. Where I think the role play possibilities are thrown out are with the insta titles that are given to often in SL Gor - both for women AND men. Why not let a woman vye for the role of magistrate? Why not allow her to RP out the possibilities of it being her biggest achievement or her biggest failure in terms of men finding a way to <insert sarcasm font> "bring her to her knees" so she can see MEN are truly the leaders of gor!!!
@Reverend psychoevolutionism or not is really not the point. If the males see some reason to put the woman in a position in which they "believe" they can ultimately control the decisions of a neutral party - why the hell not? They did with Tarna and maybe Talena as well. Why not make it more localized in terms of caste vs army or city control. For example, some members of the merchants want more of a say in the decisions regarding court rulings but they don't want to risk putting a man in place who might decide to do things his own way. He's a gorean man right? In the eyes of the Merchants, controlling a man might be more difficult than controlling a woman *cough*. If the RP is there to back up her progression up the ladder of her caste I could see it happen. Isn't Gor about power and control, even if it's on a civic level?
If you follow most of the story in the book the notion of equity between men and women is one of the weakness of Earth. Gorean men are considered superior to those of Earth for that specific reason in Norman work. It is BTB the morality of Gor. So female magistrate? Female juging male that are not Kajiru... Improbable.
In SL, possible, even BTB sim have some adaptation for making RP possible.
How can putting a woman in position of power to be used as a pawn considered an act of equality? They want control in decisions that concern them and since they view women as weaker would she not fit the bill?
Quote from: Reverend Messmer on 05. October 2013, 17:34:53
Quote from: Elle Couerblanc on 04. October 2013, 21:34:03
@Syndel I was only saying who the conversation was between so others not as familiar with the books wouldn't take it as a reference to Talena. Sorry if it looked like I was trying to correct you :)
The point of my post was to agree with what you are ascerting in terms of the plausibility of a female leader in Gor. Where I think the role play possibilities are thrown out are with the insta titles that are given to often in SL Gor - both for women AND men. Why not let a woman vye for the role of magistrate? Why not allow her to RP out the possibilities of it being her biggest achievement or her biggest failure in terms of men finding a way to <insert sarcasm font> "bring her to her knees" so she can see MEN are truly the leaders of gor!!!
@Reverend psychoevolutionism or not is really not the point. If the males see some reason to put the woman in a position in which they "believe" they can ultimately control the decisions of a neutral party - why the hell not? They did with Tarna and maybe Talena as well. Why not make it more localized in terms of caste vs army or city control. For example, some members of the merchants want more of a say in the decisions regarding court rulings but they don't want to risk putting a man in place who might decide to do things his own way. He's a gorean man right? In the eyes of the Merchants, controlling a man might be more difficult than controlling a woman *cough*. If the RP is there to back up her progression up the ladder of her caste I could see it happen. Isn't Gor about power and control, even if it's on a civic level?
If you follow most of the story in the book the notion of equity between men and women is one of the weakness of Earth. Gorean men are considered superior to those of Earth for that specific reason in Norman work. It is BTB the morality of Gor. So female magistrate? Female juging male that are not Kajiru... Improbable.
In SL, possible, even BTB sim have some adaptation for making RP possible.
How can putting a woman in position of power to be used as a pawn considered an act of equality? They want control in decisions that concern them and since they view women as weaker would she not fit the bill?
Nigaltwaddlesworthiii:
Quote from: Elle Couerblanc on 05. October 2013, 21:35:59
How can putting a woman in position of power to be used as a pawn considered an act of equality? They want control in decisions that concern them and since they view women as weaker would she not fit the bill?
I would tend to agree with you Elle, and have to wonder what about this point you and others make is difficult to understand.. ???
Edit for clarification:
It is clear that on SL, there has to be some leway given for some roles due to the lack of male player interest in such roles. That being a given, I view it as perfectly BTB that a woman would and could be used as a tool of ambitious and power hungry men to forward their own agendas. Placing a woman in some position of authority as a puppet is perfectly BTB manipulation, even if it is used as an example of 'why women should never be in power'. If she is the tool of men, ultimately she has no actual power over them, and is only serving to promote a man's agenda in a male dominated world.
Quote from: Elle Couerblanc on 05. October 2013, 21:35:59
How can putting a woman in position of power to be used as a pawn considered an act of equality? They want control in decisions that concern them and since they view women as weaker would she not fit the bill?
I would tend to agree with you Elle, and have to wonder what about this point you and others make is difficult to understand.. ???
Edit for clarification:
It is clear that on SL, there has to be some leway given for some roles due to the lack of male player interest in such roles. That being a given, I view it as perfectly BTB that a woman would and could be used as a tool of ambitious and power hungry men to forward their own agendas. Placing a woman in some position of authority as a puppet is perfectly BTB manipulation, even if it is used as an example of 'why women should never be in power'. If she is the tool of men, ultimately she has no actual power over them, and is only serving to promote a man's agenda in a male dominated world.
Kail Lefevre:
Have to watch that whole installing a woman to rule so you can control her thing.
Look how well that worked in the Eragon books with the Varden
http://www.gor-sl.com/index.php/board,1.0/wap2.html
Have to watch that whole installing a woman to rule so you can control her thing.
Look how well that worked in the Eragon books with the Varden
http://www.gor-sl.com/index.php/board,1.0/wap2.html
Thursday, May 8, 2014
New Position
I made it back to the village of Whitewater and while learned there of the new position. Father, the Ubar of Whitewater gave me the post of Head of Caste and Head Magistrate... so it appears I am over the blue caste now. My Sister will be Chief Scribe and help with that side of things. Will need to find a magistrate for the other side. This should be interesting. I am sure I have a lot to learn.
I wonder what scrolls and books I could find on the subject?
I wonder what scrolls and books I could find on the subject?
Friday, March 7, 2014
Quotes on Magistrates
As the tarn had landed, her executioners, two burly, hooded magistrates, had scrambled to their feet and fled to safety.
Tarnsman of Gor Book 1 Page 204
As the burly magistrates hastened forward, I seized my spear and hurled it with such force as I would not have believed possible. The spear flashed through the air like a bolt of lightning and struck the oncoming magistrate in the chest, passing through his body and burying itself in the heart of his companion.
Tarnsman of Gor Book 1 Page 205
I would not be the first, of course, to enter the Sardar. Many men and sometimes women had entered these mountains but it is not known what they found. Sometimes these individuals are young idealists, rebels and champions of lost causes, who wish to protest to Priest-Kings; sometimes they are individuals who are old or diseased and are tired of life and wish to die; sometimes they are piteous or cunning or frightened wretches who think to find the secret of immortality in those barren crags; and sometimes they are outlaws fleeing from Gor's harsh justice, hoping to find at least brief sanctuary in the cruel, mysterious domain of Priest-Kings, a country into which they may be assured no mortal magistrate or vengeful band of human warriors will penetrate.
Priest-Kings of Gor Book 3 Page 16
That her ear had been notched indicated that, by a magistrate, she had been found thief.
Hunters of Gor Book 8 Pages 22 - 23
"The drink she gave me," said Arn, smiling, "was well drugged. I awakened at dawn, with a great headache. My purse was gone."
"Times are hard," said Rim.
"I complained to a magistrate," said Arn, laughing, "but, unfortunately, there was one present who well recalled me, one with whom I had had prior dealings." He slapped his knee. "Soldiers were set upon me, and, over the roofs and into the forests, I barely escaped."
Hunters of Gor Book 8 Page 23
Most ports and islands on Thassa, of course, are not managed by the Merchants, but, commonly, by magistrates appointed by the city councils. In Port Kar, my city, the utilization of the facilities of the port is regulated by a board of four magistrates, the Port Consortium, which reports directly to the Council of Captains, which, since the downfall of the warring Ubars, is sovereign in the city. I suppose the magistrate, who, with his papers, met us at the dock, did not believe my story.
Hunters of Gor Book 8 Page 43
Behind the wagon, in the white robes, trimmed with gold and purple, of merchant magistrates, came five men. I recognized them as judges.
Hunters of Gor Book 8 Page 49
Similarly, slave girls, attempting to escape, can be separated out from free women, even when all are veiled and wear the robes of concealment. Again, the tests may be simple. Once, in Ko-ro-ba, I saw a slaver, before a magistrate, distinguish such a girl, not even one of his own, from eleven free women. Each, in turn, was asked to pour him a cup of wine, and then withdraw, nothing more. At the end, the slaver rose to his feet and pointed to one of the women. "No!" she had cried. "I am free!" Officers of the court, by order of the magistrate, removed her garments. If she were free, the slaver would be impaled. When her last garment had been torn away, there was applause in the court. The girl stood there. On her thigh was the brand.
Hunters of Gor Book 8 Page 156
On Earth you had the society at your back, the result of centuries of feminization; he could not so much as speak harshly to you but you could rush away or summon magistrates; here, however, society is not at your back, but at his; it will abet him in his wishes, for you are only a slave; you will have no one to call, nowhere to run; you will be alone with him, and at his mercy.
Tribesmen of Gor Book 10 Page 12
I did not think they would slay me in the cell. This would seem, to the magistrates of Nine Wells, inexplicable, an ancient demanding the most rigorous and exacting inquiry.
Tribesmen of Gor Book 10 Page 129
Though there are some token tributes involved, exemptions for Aretai merchants from caravan taxes, and such, the vassal tribe is, in its own areas, almost completely autonomous, with its own leaders, magistrates, judges and soldiers. The significance of the relationship is, crucially, interestingly, military alliance.
Tribesmen of Gor Book 10 Pages 176 - 177
"Kill the spy," said a man.
"No," said Aurelion. "We will take him to the magistrates."
The double gate was unlocked by Strabo, who had recovered his keys. Four men made ready to conduct Clitus Vitellius from the tavern.
"It is the heavy galleys for spies," said one man.
"Better to kill him now," said a man.
"No," said Aurelion, "conduct him to the magistrates. They will have much sport with him before he is chained to a bench."
Slave Girl of Gor Book 11 Page 351
"Your minions," said the man, "will be of little service. It is understood they are of Cos. They are already in the custody of the magistrates of Ar."
Slave Girl of Gor Book 11 Page 391
"Shall I have you taken before the magistrates of Ar," he inquired, "to substantiate your claim of citizenship?"
Slave Girl of Gor Book 11 Page 395
"You are a stranger in Lydius," said the man.
"I scarcely think you are magistrates investigating my business," said I. "Who are you? What do you want?"
Beasts of Gor Book 12 Page 141
"The slave is awarded to Ulafi of Schendi," ruled the praetor.
There were cheers from the men present, and Gorean applause, the striking of the left shoulder with the right hand.
"My thanks, Praetor," said Ulafi, receiving back the slave papers from the magistrate.
Explorers of Gor Book 13 Page 68
"With this letter," I said, indicating the document, "you may return when you wish. I would advise you, however, should the ruling, as I would expect, be in your favor, to consider the adoption of an honest occupation. If the magistrates do not apprehend you you might, in Port Kar, run afoul of the caste of thieves. They are sometimes jealous of their prerogatives."
Explorers of Gor Book 13 Page 463
For example, although one may see a girl in the streets, naked save for, say, her brand and collar, or a bit of chain, this is not common. This sort of thing is done, usually, only as a discipline. Free women tend to object, for the eyes of their companions tend almost inadvertently to stray to the exposed flesh of such girls. Perhaps, too, they are angry that they themselves are not permitted to present themselves so brazenly and lusciously before men. Needless to say it is difficult for men to keep their minds on business when such girls are among them. Perhaps this is the reason that magistrates tend to frown upon the practice.
Guardsman of Gor Book 16 Page 106
Let us suppose that the Gorean youth buys his first girl. Before this, of course, he may have used house slaves or the girls in the paga taverns. Indeed, in gangs of roaming youths, he may have caught and raped slave girls on errands in his own city. Some young men regard this as an interesting sport. If a magistrate should chance upon them in some alley he will commonly say, "Thigh," to them, and they will turn the girl, so that he may see if she is branded or not. If she is branded, he will commonly continue on his rounds. The unauthorized rape of slave girls, without the permission of their masters, is officially frowned on in most cities, but, too, it is as often winked at.
Guardsman of Gor Book 16 Page 184
Such itinerant troupes, theatrical troupes, carnival groupings, and such, are not uncommon on Gor. They consist usually of rogues and outcasts. With their wagons and tents, often little more than a skip and a jump ahead of creditors and magistrates, they roam from place to place, rigging their simple stages in piazzas and squares, in yards and markets, wherever an audience may be found, even at the dusty intersections of country crossroads.
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 9
On Gor; as I have perhaps mentioned, most of the actresses are slaves. In serious drama or more sophisticated comedy, when women are permitted roles within it, the female roles usually being played by men, and the females are slaves, their collars are sometimes removed. Before this is done, however, usually a steel bracelet or anklet, locked, which they cannot remove, is placed on them. In this way, they continue, helplessly, to wear some token of bondage. This facilitates, in any possible dispute or uncertainty as to their status or condition, a clear determination in the matter, by anyone, of course, but in particular by guardsmen or magistrates, or otherwise duly authorized authorities.
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 122
"With your permission, Lady Telitsia?" inquired Boots, addressing himself politely to the haughty, rigid, proud, vain, heavily veiled, blue-clad free female standing in the front row below the stage.
"You may continue," she said.
"But you may find what ensues offensive," Boots warned her.
"Doubtless I will," she said. "And have no fear, I shall include it in my complaint to the proper magistrates."
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 129
Boots obliged. "Are you disrobing?" he asked. The men in the audience began to cry out with pleasure. Some struck their left shoulders in Gorean applause.
"Yes," called the Brigella. She was quite beautiful.
"I shall mention this in my complaint to the proper magistrates," said the free woman from her position near the stage.
Players of Gor Book 20 Pages 134 - 135
"Apparently you are a slave," he said, grimly. "You should not have tried to masquerade as a free woman. There are heavy penalties for that sort of thing."
She put her head in her hands, sobbing.
"I wonder if I should turn you over to magistrates," he said.
"Please, do not!" she wept.
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 145
"I will, before nightfall, and you may depend upon it," she said, "lodge my complaint with the magistrates. By tomorrow noon, you will be closed, forbidden to perform at the fair."
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 160
"If you are magistrates," he cried, "know that I have come on this camp of brigands and, in cognizance of my jeopardy, was making ready to defend myself!" He looked about, wildly, drawing back another pace or so. "Show yourself," he cried, "as befits your office, that of those who courageously do war with brigands, that of those who do nobly defend and support the law, or as plain honest men, if that you be, that I may ally myself with you, that we may then offer to one another, no, then pledge to one another, mutual protection and succor on these dark and dangerous roads."
It was very quiet, save mostly for the rustling and clicking of insects. Too I heard, intermittently, from somewhere far off, the cries of a tiny, horned gim.
"You do not show yourselves," called the man. "Good! Know then that I am a brigand, too! I feared you might be magistrates. It was thus that I spoke as I did.
Players of Gor Book 20 Pages 187 - 188
"I refuse!" she cried. "The very thought of it! The outrage! The indignity! How dare you even think of such a thing! I am of high caste! I am of the scribes! Wait until I bring this matter to the attention of magistrates!"
"As I may remind you, my dear," said Boots, patiently, "you are no longer of high caste nor of the scribes. Similarly, as I am sure you will recognize, at least upon reflection, you now have no standing before the law. You are now of no more interest to magistrates, in their official capacities, as opposed to their private capacities, than would be an urt or a sleen."
She regarded him, frightened.
"Your days of making a nuisance of yourself are now over," said Boots. "Indeed, I speculate that those very same magistrates whom you have so often inconvenienced would be quite pleased to learn that you are now, at last, no longer capable of pestering them with your inane, time-consuming nonsense. I doubt that they would wish to see you again, unless perhaps it would be to turn you naked and bound to your master, with the blows of a whip on your body, or perhaps, say, to have you serve them in a tavern, helpless in the modality that would then be yours, that of the total female slave."
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 201
"This is an outrage!" she cried. "It is an unspeakable insult! I shall have the magistrates on you for this!"
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 303
Contrariwise, almost no free woman would bare her legs. They would not dare to do so. They would be horrified even to think of it. The scandal of such an act could ruin a reputation. It is said on Gor that any woman who bares her legs is a slave. Indeed, in some cities a free woman who might be found with bared legs is taken in hand by magistrates, tried and sentenced to bondage. After the judge's decision has been enacted, its effect carried out upon her, reducing her to the status of goods, sometimes publicly, that she may be suitably disgraced, sometimes privately, by a contract slaver, that the sensitivities of free women in the city not be offended, she is hooded and transported, stripped and chained, freshly branded and collared, a property female, slave cargo, to a distant market where, once sold, she will begin her life anew, fearfully, as a purchased girl, tremulously as the helpless and lowly slave she now is.
Mercenaries of Gor Book 21 Page 69
There had even been some handbills distributed by boys about the city, and others, I had heard, had been tacked up on public boards. There had been signs painted too, I gathered, here and there among similar signs, usually on poorer streets, or in alleys, where magistrates, less inclined to object, were also less prone to patrol.
Dancer of Gor Book 22 Page 167
Similarly, if it seems understandable that, say, a high magistrate, a general, a Ubar, or such, might enjoy sitting in his pleasure gardens and inspecting his women, having them before him naked, or clothed according to his preferences, it is just as understandable that a less rich or well-fixed person might, similarly, on a more modest level, enjoy the sight of his girl, or girls.
Dancer of Gor Book 22 Page 260
"You received stolen goods," said the man.
"Not to my knowledge," said my master.
"An investigation might nonetheless prove you have no legal hold on her."
"Are you a magistrate, or a praetor's agent?" inquired my master, narrowly.
"No," said the fellow.
My master relaxed, visibly.
Dancer of Gor Book 22 Page 287
He was "recruiting" for the chains of work masters. To be sure, he must do this work surreptitiously. It would be quite unfortunate for him, I had gathered, if he were to be discovered to have been involved in such work. Judges, magistrates, and such, would not be likely to look indulgently on these activities.
Dancer of Gor Book 22 Page 306
"I sentence you to slavery," he said, uttering the sentence.
She trembled, sentenced.
"It only remains now," said Aemilianus, "for the sentence to be carried out. If you wish I, in the office of magistrate, shall carry it out. On the other hand, if you wish, you may yourself carry out the sentence."
"I?" she said.
"Yes," he said.
"You would have me proclaim myself slave?" she asked.
"Or I shall do it," he said. "In the end, it does not matter."
Renegades of Gor Book 23 Page 387
I had left some slaves beads in recompense, of course, pretty beads of cheap wood, such as are cast about in festivals and carnivals, sometimes even being seized up secretly by free women who put them on before their mirrors, in secret, as though they might be slaves. In many cities, incidentally, a woman who is discovered doing such a thing may be remanded to magistrates for impressment into bondage. There will then be nothing inappropriate, even from the legal point of view, in their wearing such ornaments, assuming that they have their master's permission.
Vagabonds of Gor Book 24 Page 69
"I am sure you are familiar with the law," said the first fellow, flanked by two magistrates.
"No!" she cried.
The magistrates were ex officio witnesses, who could certify the circumstances of the capture. The net was a stout one, and weighted.
"Any free woman who couches with another's slave, or readies herself to couch with another's slave, becomes herself a slave, and the slave of the slave's master. It is a clear law."
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 7
I saw the fellow who had been in the room emerge through the door. He was followed by the two magistrates, who had probably now made the entries in their records. They were followed by four guardsmen, in single file.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 11
I recalled the free female whose capture I had noted in Ar, that which had taken place in a street-level room in the Metellan district. Surely she must have known the law. The consorting of a free female with another man's slave renders her susceptible to the collar of the slave's master. The net had been cunningly arranged, that it might, when released, activated perhaps by springs or the pulling of a lever, fall and drape itself over the couch. It was clearly a device designed for such a purpose. The net and the room doubtless constituted a capture cubicle, simpler perhaps, but not unlike those in certain inns, in which a woman, lulled by the bolting on the doors, and feeling herself secure, may complete her toilet at leisure, bathing, combing her hair, perfuming herself and such, before the trap doors, dropped from beneath her, plunge her into the waiting arms of slavers. Guardsmen and magistrates, I had noted, had been in immediate attendance.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 42
My friend, the actor, magician, impresario and whatnot, Boots Tarsk-Bit, once narrowly escaped an impalement in Besnit on the charge of using false dice. He was, however, it seems, framed. At any rate the charges were dismissed when a pair of identical false dice turned up in the pouch of the arresting magistrate, the original pair having, interestingly, at about the same time, vanished.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 59
"No!" wept Claudia. "It is one thing to be captured by a man and taken to his tent, and put to his feet and made to serve, or to be sentenced by a magistrate in due course of law to slavery for crimes which I have actually committed, and another to stand here publicly shamed, before my enemy, a woman, in her triumph, to be consigned by her to helpless bondage."
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 150
"And what later," I asked, "in the edifice of the magistrates?"
"I was in a cell," she said, "naked, lying on some straw, chained by the neck to a wall."
"And your emotions?" I asked.
She looked up at me.
"My thigh was sore," she said. "I had been branded."
"Of course," I said.
"There were two collars on my neck," she said, "a light, temporary slave collar, identifying me as a slave provisionally in the custody of magistrates, and, over it, a retaining collar, that by means of which I was fastened to the wall."
"And your emotions?" I asked.
"I lay there," she said, "my fingers on the chain, near the retaining collar."
I looked at her.
"Serenity, contentment," she said. "Happiness. The fighting was over."
"When did you receive the collar of Appanius?" I asked.
"The next day," she said, "affixed on me by one of his agents. Later I was called for at the edifice of the magistrates by one of his slaves, driving a tharlarion wagon.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 309
"He will then presumably regard it as his work to keep the free woman, whoever she turns out to be, here until Appanius and the magistrates arrive."
"I would think so, Master," she said.
"Which arrival, as he understands it, will be in the neighborhood of a half past the sixth Ahn?"
"Yes, Master," she said.
"Good," I said. The original time of the assignation, conveyed to the slave, which he, in turn, would have conveyed to his master, was the seventh Ahn. Accordingly the master, and presumably two magistrates, who would act as official witnesses and be officers versed in certain matters, would wish to arrive early, presumably about half past the sixth Ahn, or, at any rate, at a decent interval before the seventh Ahn.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 414
"Yes," she said. "That is the door by means of which I was entered into this room. Appanius, and the magistrates, and others, apparently had entered through the back, or some side entrance."
"There is such an entrance," I said. "It lets out into an alley, a little further down the street. One then comes back to the street between buildings."
"That is, I believe," she said, "the way I left the premises. To be sure, once out in the street I was almost instantly disoriented."
I nodded.
"I did not even know where I was," she said, "until I was unhooded, and found myself chained by the neck in a magistrate's cell."
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 415
"The magistrates should arrive any moment," I said. "Presumably they will come to the back," he said.
"I would think so," I said. Surely they would have been here often enough in the past. Too, it did not seem likely they would wish to be seen entering by the street door. They would be, as far as they knew, keeping their appointment with Appanius and his men. When they arrived, of course, they would discover that a change of plans had occurred, and that it would not be Appanius for whom they would render their services, but another.
. . .
In the back room I tracked these matters by means of one of the observation portals. One of the two magistrates, he who was senior, Tolnar, of the second Octavii, an important gens but one independent of the well-known Octavii, sometimes spoken of simply as the Octavii, or sometimes as the first Octavii, deputy commissioner in the records office, much of which had been destroyed in a recent fire, was at the other portal. His colleague, Venlisius, a bright young man who was now, by adoption, a scion of the Toratti, was with him. Venlisius was in the same office. He was records officer, or archon of records, for the Metellan district, in which we were located. Both magistrates wore their robes, and fillets, of office. They also carried their wands of office, which, I suspect, from the look of them, and despite the weapons laws of Cos, contained concealed blades. I was pleased to hope that these fellows were such as to put the laws of Ar before the ordinances of Cos. I had requested that they dismiss their attendant guardsmen, which they had done. I did not anticipate that they would be needed.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Pages 441 - 442
"I am not only preparing to couch with you," she said. "I am prepared to couch with you." She then knelt on the couch, and back on her heels.
I glanced to Tolnar, the magistrate. He nodded.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 452
"What was your name?" inquired Tolnar. "We shall wish it for the records."
"I am Talena!" she cried. "I am Talena, Ubara of Ar! Down on your knees before me! I am Talena, Talena! Ubara of Ar! I am your Ubara!"
"You may, of course, attempt to conceal your former identity," said Tolnar. "At this point it is immaterial."
"I am Talena!" she cried.
"Perhaps you might think to delude a poor slave," said Tolnar, "but we are free men."
"Fools!" she wept.
"What was your name?" he asked.
"My name is Talena!" she said. "I am Ubara of Ar!"
"You would have us believe that Talena of Ar is a sensuous tart in need of sexual relief, a mere chit who would condescend to keep a rendezvous so shameful as this?"
"I am Talena!" she cried, squirming in the net. "Release me! I shall scream!"
"That would be interesting, if you are Talena," said Tolnar. "You would then choose to publicize, it seems, your whereabouts. You would choose to be discovered naked and netted, before magistrates, in a room in the Metellan district, having been prepared to couch with a slave?"
She threw her head down, angrily, on the furs. "I am Talena," she said. "Release me!"
"What is more pertinent to our purposes," said Tolnar, "is your legal status, or, in this case, it seems, your former legal status."
"Release me, fools!" she said.
"What was your legal status before you entered this room?" asked Tolnar.
"I was, and am, a free woman!" she said.
"Of Ar?" he asked.
"Yes!" she cried, angrily.
"That is the crux of the matter," said Tolnar. He glanced to Venlisius, who nodded.
"Do you doubt that I am Talena?" she demanded of Tolnar.
"Surely you must permit me to be skeptical," he smiled.
"I am she!" she cried. Then she looked wildly at Milo. "You know me!" she wept. "You can attest to my identity! You have seen me in the Central Cylinder! So, too, has that slut of a slave!"
"Stand," said Tolnar to Lavinia, who immediately complied.
"Please, Milo," begged the netted beauty, helplessly, pathetically, agonizingly, "do not lie! Tell the truth!"
He looked at her.
"Please, Milo!" she begged. "Tell them who I am!" How much she felt then dependent upon him, how much in his power! How different this was from her former mastery of him! How terrified she was that he might, for one reason or another, lie to the magistrates, putting her then before them as no more than a common, captured, compromised female.
"Who was she?" asked Tolnar of Milo.
"Talena, Ubara of Ar," said Milo.
"Ah!" she wept in relief.
Tolnar and Venlisius exchanged glances. They did not much relish this development.
"Release me, you sleen!" wept Talena, struggling futilely in the net.
"And you?" asked Tolnar of Lavinia, who was looking on the netted captive, indeed, a prisoner of the same cords which, months before, had held her with such similar perfection.
"Master?" asked Lavinia.
"Who was she?" said Tolnar.
"That, too, is my understanding," said Lavinia. "Talena, of Ar."
"Release me!" demanded the captive.
"What difference does it make," asked Marcus, "if, indeed, she is Talena of Ar?"
"Fool!" laughed the netted captive.
"From the legal point of view," said Tolnar, "it makes no difference, of course."
"Release me!" she said. "Do you think I am a common person? Do you think you can treat one of my importance in this fashion! I shall have Seremides have you boiled in oil!"
"I am of the second Octavii," said Tolnar. "My colleague is of the Toratti."
"Then you may be scourged and beheaded, or impaled!" she wept.
"You would have us neglect our duty?" inquired Tolnar. He was Gorean, of course.
"In this case," she snapped, "you are well advised to do so."
"That is quite possibly true," said Tolnar.
"The principle here, I gather," said Marcus, "is that the Ubara is above the law."
"The law in question is a serious one," said Tolnar. "It was promulgated by Marlenus, Ubar of Ubars."
"Surely," said Venlisius to the netted woman, "you do not put yourself on a level with the great Marlenus."
"It does not matter who is greater," she said. "I am Ubara!"
"The Ubara is above the law?" asked Marcus, who had an interest in such things.
"In a sense, yes," said Tolnar, "the sense in which she can change the law by decree."
"But she is subject to the law unless she chooses to change it?" asked Marcus.
"Precisely," said Tolnar. "And that is the point here."
"Whatever law it is," cried the netted woman, "I change it! I herewith change it!"
"How can you change it?" asked Tolnar.
"I am Ubara!" she said.
"You were Ubara," he said.
She cried out in misery, in frustration, in the net.
"Interesting," said Marcus.
"Release me!" demanded the woman.
"Do you think we are fond of she who was once Talena," asked Tolnar, "of she who betrayed Ar, and collaborated with her enemies?"
"Release me, if you value your lives!" she cried. "Seremides will wish me free! So, too, will Myron! So, too, will Lurius of Jad!"
"But we have taken an oath to uphold the laws of Ar," said Tolnar.
"Free me!" she said.
"You would have us compromise our honor?" asked Tolnar.
"I order you to do so," she said.
Tolnar smiled.
"Why do you smile?" she asked.
"How can a slave order a free person to do anything?" he asked.
"A slave!" she cried. "How dare you!"
"You are taken into bondage," said Tolnar, "under the couching laws of Marlenus of Ar. Any free woman who couches with, or prepares to couch with, a male slave, becomes herself a slave, and the property of the male slave's master."
"I, property!" she cried.
"Yes," said Tolnar.
Absurd!" she said.
"Not at all," he said. "It is, I assure you, all quite legal."
"Proceed then with your farce!" she cried. "I know Appanius well, and his position in this city is much dependent upon my support! Have I not freed him of numerous burdens? Have I not adjusted his taxes? Have I not spared his house, and those of other favorites, the exactions of the levies?"
"You acknowledge, then," asked Tolnar, "that you are a slave?"
"Yes," she said, angrily, "I am a slave! Now, summon Appanius, immediately, that I may be promptly freed! Then you will see to what fates I shall consign you!"
"But what if Appanius wishes you as a slave?" asked Marcus.
She laughed. "I see you do not know our dear Appanius," she said. "The most he would want from a woman would be to have her do his cleaning and scrub his floors!"
"But what if that is precisely what he has in mind for you?" asked Tolnar.
She turned white.
"Doubtless she would look well, performing lowly labors in chains," said Marcus.
"Perhaps, unknown to you," said Tolnar, "Appanius is a patriot."
"Never!" she said. "Bring him here!"
"What if he would keep you in his house as a slave?" asked Marcus.
"Perhaps you think you could make your former identity known," said Tolnar. "That might be amusing."
"'Amusing'?" she asked.
"Who would believe that once you had been Talena, the Ubara of Ar?" asked Tolnar.
"More likely," said Venlisius, "you would be whipped, as a mad slave."
"While," said Tolnar, "another woman, suitably coached, and veiled, would take your place in the Central Cylinder. From the point of view of the public, things would be much the same."
"Bring Appanius here!" she cried. "I know him. I can speak with him. I can make him see, I assure you, what is to his advantage! This is all some preposterous mistake. Free me! This is all some terrible misunderstanding! Bring Appanius here! I demand it!"
"But what has Appanius to do with this?" asked Tolnar.
"I do not understand," said the woman.
Tolnar regarded her.
"He has everything to do with it," she said. "He is Milo's master!"
"No," said Tolnar.
The prisoner turned her head about, not easily, in the net.
"Appanius is your master!" she said to Milo.
"No," he said.
"Yes!" she cried. "He is your master. He is also the master of that short-haired slut!"
"No!" said Lavinia.
"You did not call me 'Mistress'," said the prisoner.
"Why should I?" asked Lavinia.
"It is true that you belong to the master of Milo," said Tolnar, "but it is false that the master of Milo is Appanius."
"To whom, then, do I belong?" she asked, aghast.
"Let the papers be prepared, and the measurements, and prints, taken," said Tolnar.
"Yes, Tolnar," said Venlisius.
"Papers! Measurements! Prints!" she protested.
"I think you can understand," said Tolnar, "that in a case such as this, such documentations, guarantees and precautions are not out of order."
"No! No!" she cried.
Tolnar and Venlisius put their wands of office to the side and went to the back room, to obtain the necessary papers and materials.
"You!" cried the prisoner, looking at Marcus. "It is then you to whom I belong!"
He merely regarded her.
"Who are you?" she cried.
"It does not matter," he said.
"I will buy my freedom!" she said. "I will give you a thousand pieces of gold! Two thousand! Ten thousand! Name your price!"
"But you have nothing," he said. "No more than a kaiila, or sleen."
"Contact Seremides!" she said. "Contact Myron, Polemarkos of Temos! They will arrange my ransom."
"Ransom or price?" asked Marcus.
"Price!" she said, angrily.
"But you are not, as of this moment, for sale," he said.
"Sleen!" she wept. She struggled but I, behind her, kept her well in the net.
At this point Tolnar and Venlisius reentered the room and, in a few moments, were in the process of filling out the papers. These included an extremely complete description of the woman, exact even to details such as the structure of her ear lobes. Tolnar then, with a graduated tape, reaching in and about the net, and moving the woman, as necessary, took a large number of measurements, these being recorded by Venlisius. Additional measurements were taken with other instruments, such as a calipers. With these were recorded such data as the width and length of fingers and toes, the width of her heels, the lovely tiny distance between her nostrils, and so on. The result of this examination, of course, was to produce a network of data which, to a statistical certainty, far beyond the requirements of law, would be unique to a given female. Then, one hand at a time, pulled a bit from the net, then reinserted in it, her fingerprints were taken. Following this, her toeprints were taken. Then, the woman shaken, tears on the furs, was again fully within the net, on her belly. Her fingers and toes were dark with ink, from the taking of the prints.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Pages 453 - 457
A woman behaving in this fashion and accordingly being suspected of the collar, of trying desperately to conceal her femininity by this ruse, may be remanded to free women for an examination. If a brand is found the woman will be stripped and bound by the free women, switched liberally, for there is little love lost between free women and slaves, and then turned over to magistrates, to be returned to the mercies of her master.
Prize of Gor Book 27 Page 216
How beautiful, too, were their faces! And suddenly, she was delighted that her own face, too, despite the contempt this might elicit from free women, would be bared, and must be bared, on this world. She, as slave, she knew, would have no choice in the matter. And this pleased her. She knew that she had a very pretty face; she was certain of that; it was exquisite, delicate, feminine, sensitive, lovely. She was sure that men would like it. But, too, she was frightened. It was the sort of face, she had learned, that called forth the master in a man. To be sure, she might be transiently sensitive to its exposure in a given context, as in the presence of a contemptuous free woman, or perhaps before magistrates, and officials, but that was only to be expected in this culture, with its particular views.
Prize of Gor Book 27 Page 223
Did they think she was a free woman, of wealth and title, of placement and connections, who might threaten them, one to whom magistrates would carefully attend?
Prize of Gor Book 27 Page 644
"The matter became public knowledge shortly after the rising of the people, the return of Marlenus," he said. "Two magistrates furnished the details, Tolnar, of the second Octavii, and Venlisius, by adoption, a scion of the Toratti. The former Ubara had been embonded in accord with the couching law of Marlenus of Ar, any free woman who couches with, or prepares to couch with, a male slave, becomes herself a slave, and the property of the male slave's master. She was preparing to couch with Milo, a slave, and actor, when apprehended, and, it seems, you were at that time, by some stratagem or subterfuge, the master of the slave, Milo, and so became the master of the former free woman, Talena of Ar. The whole thing was very cleverly done, it seems. Considering the nature of the case, papers were carefully prepared, and measurements and prints taken, that there be no mistake about the legality of the proceeding, nor any possible problem later in the exact identification of the slave.
Swordsmen of Gor Book 29 Pages 450 - 451
Possession, particularly after a lengthy interval, is often regarded as decisive, by praetors, archons, magistrates, scribes of the law, and such. What is of most importance to the law is not so much that a particular individual owns a slave as that she is owned by someone, that she is absolutely and perfectly owned.
Swordsmen of Gor Book 29 Page 452
Clipped coins are easy to identify but then, of course, one must bring forth the scales, and, not unoften, as well, rough silver or gold, unminted, is presented, perhaps melted droplets, or pieces cut from silver or golden vessels and goblets, which items will also require judicious determinations. Negotiations and bargainings, over the scales, often grow heated. The advantage of courses, lies with the stallsman. Complaints may be lodged with either of the two praetors, who, interestingly, though magistrates of Ar, apparently strive to adjudicate matters to the best of their lights. Their efforts not only redound to the honor of Ar, but, too, one supposes, tend to preserve the value and integrity of the market, which, in the long view, is doubtless in the best interest of the city's commerce. To be sure, major transactions often take place near the walls, and outside them, in the wholesale markets.
Conspirators of Gor Book 31 Page 273 - 274
"One always hears things," I said, warily.
"I am not an investigating magistrate," he said, "with a rack in the next room."
"I understand," I said.
Conspirators of Gor Book 31 Page 521
In problematical situations, escaped slaves are commonly publicly exhibited for a time, chained under a pertinent notice and then, if not claimed, auctioned, or delivered to the finder. Sometimes a slave is tortured and, in this case, she is likely to acknowledge herself the slave of anyone whom the magistrate might suggest, perhaps a relative in another village.
Smugglers of Gor Book 32 Page 442
"I will report the capture of the slave to the magistrates," said Axel.
Smugglers of Gor Book 32 Page 469
http://www.thegoreancave.com/civil/magistrate.php
Tarnsman of Gor Book 1 Page 204
As the burly magistrates hastened forward, I seized my spear and hurled it with such force as I would not have believed possible. The spear flashed through the air like a bolt of lightning and struck the oncoming magistrate in the chest, passing through his body and burying itself in the heart of his companion.
Tarnsman of Gor Book 1 Page 205
I would not be the first, of course, to enter the Sardar. Many men and sometimes women had entered these mountains but it is not known what they found. Sometimes these individuals are young idealists, rebels and champions of lost causes, who wish to protest to Priest-Kings; sometimes they are individuals who are old or diseased and are tired of life and wish to die; sometimes they are piteous or cunning or frightened wretches who think to find the secret of immortality in those barren crags; and sometimes they are outlaws fleeing from Gor's harsh justice, hoping to find at least brief sanctuary in the cruel, mysterious domain of Priest-Kings, a country into which they may be assured no mortal magistrate or vengeful band of human warriors will penetrate.
Priest-Kings of Gor Book 3 Page 16
That her ear had been notched indicated that, by a magistrate, she had been found thief.
Hunters of Gor Book 8 Pages 22 - 23
"The drink she gave me," said Arn, smiling, "was well drugged. I awakened at dawn, with a great headache. My purse was gone."
"Times are hard," said Rim.
"I complained to a magistrate," said Arn, laughing, "but, unfortunately, there was one present who well recalled me, one with whom I had had prior dealings." He slapped his knee. "Soldiers were set upon me, and, over the roofs and into the forests, I barely escaped."
Hunters of Gor Book 8 Page 23
Most ports and islands on Thassa, of course, are not managed by the Merchants, but, commonly, by magistrates appointed by the city councils. In Port Kar, my city, the utilization of the facilities of the port is regulated by a board of four magistrates, the Port Consortium, which reports directly to the Council of Captains, which, since the downfall of the warring Ubars, is sovereign in the city. I suppose the magistrate, who, with his papers, met us at the dock, did not believe my story.
Hunters of Gor Book 8 Page 43
Behind the wagon, in the white robes, trimmed with gold and purple, of merchant magistrates, came five men. I recognized them as judges.
Hunters of Gor Book 8 Page 49
Similarly, slave girls, attempting to escape, can be separated out from free women, even when all are veiled and wear the robes of concealment. Again, the tests may be simple. Once, in Ko-ro-ba, I saw a slaver, before a magistrate, distinguish such a girl, not even one of his own, from eleven free women. Each, in turn, was asked to pour him a cup of wine, and then withdraw, nothing more. At the end, the slaver rose to his feet and pointed to one of the women. "No!" she had cried. "I am free!" Officers of the court, by order of the magistrate, removed her garments. If she were free, the slaver would be impaled. When her last garment had been torn away, there was applause in the court. The girl stood there. On her thigh was the brand.
Hunters of Gor Book 8 Page 156
On Earth you had the society at your back, the result of centuries of feminization; he could not so much as speak harshly to you but you could rush away or summon magistrates; here, however, society is not at your back, but at his; it will abet him in his wishes, for you are only a slave; you will have no one to call, nowhere to run; you will be alone with him, and at his mercy.
Tribesmen of Gor Book 10 Page 12
I did not think they would slay me in the cell. This would seem, to the magistrates of Nine Wells, inexplicable, an ancient demanding the most rigorous and exacting inquiry.
Tribesmen of Gor Book 10 Page 129
Though there are some token tributes involved, exemptions for Aretai merchants from caravan taxes, and such, the vassal tribe is, in its own areas, almost completely autonomous, with its own leaders, magistrates, judges and soldiers. The significance of the relationship is, crucially, interestingly, military alliance.
Tribesmen of Gor Book 10 Pages 176 - 177
"Kill the spy," said a man.
"No," said Aurelion. "We will take him to the magistrates."
The double gate was unlocked by Strabo, who had recovered his keys. Four men made ready to conduct Clitus Vitellius from the tavern.
"It is the heavy galleys for spies," said one man.
"Better to kill him now," said a man.
"No," said Aurelion, "conduct him to the magistrates. They will have much sport with him before he is chained to a bench."
Slave Girl of Gor Book 11 Page 351
"Your minions," said the man, "will be of little service. It is understood they are of Cos. They are already in the custody of the magistrates of Ar."
Slave Girl of Gor Book 11 Page 391
"Shall I have you taken before the magistrates of Ar," he inquired, "to substantiate your claim of citizenship?"
Slave Girl of Gor Book 11 Page 395
"You are a stranger in Lydius," said the man.
"I scarcely think you are magistrates investigating my business," said I. "Who are you? What do you want?"
Beasts of Gor Book 12 Page 141
"The slave is awarded to Ulafi of Schendi," ruled the praetor.
There were cheers from the men present, and Gorean applause, the striking of the left shoulder with the right hand.
"My thanks, Praetor," said Ulafi, receiving back the slave papers from the magistrate.
Explorers of Gor Book 13 Page 68
"With this letter," I said, indicating the document, "you may return when you wish. I would advise you, however, should the ruling, as I would expect, be in your favor, to consider the adoption of an honest occupation. If the magistrates do not apprehend you you might, in Port Kar, run afoul of the caste of thieves. They are sometimes jealous of their prerogatives."
Explorers of Gor Book 13 Page 463
For example, although one may see a girl in the streets, naked save for, say, her brand and collar, or a bit of chain, this is not common. This sort of thing is done, usually, only as a discipline. Free women tend to object, for the eyes of their companions tend almost inadvertently to stray to the exposed flesh of such girls. Perhaps, too, they are angry that they themselves are not permitted to present themselves so brazenly and lusciously before men. Needless to say it is difficult for men to keep their minds on business when such girls are among them. Perhaps this is the reason that magistrates tend to frown upon the practice.
Guardsman of Gor Book 16 Page 106
Let us suppose that the Gorean youth buys his first girl. Before this, of course, he may have used house slaves or the girls in the paga taverns. Indeed, in gangs of roaming youths, he may have caught and raped slave girls on errands in his own city. Some young men regard this as an interesting sport. If a magistrate should chance upon them in some alley he will commonly say, "Thigh," to them, and they will turn the girl, so that he may see if she is branded or not. If she is branded, he will commonly continue on his rounds. The unauthorized rape of slave girls, without the permission of their masters, is officially frowned on in most cities, but, too, it is as often winked at.
Guardsman of Gor Book 16 Page 184
Such itinerant troupes, theatrical troupes, carnival groupings, and such, are not uncommon on Gor. They consist usually of rogues and outcasts. With their wagons and tents, often little more than a skip and a jump ahead of creditors and magistrates, they roam from place to place, rigging their simple stages in piazzas and squares, in yards and markets, wherever an audience may be found, even at the dusty intersections of country crossroads.
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 9
On Gor; as I have perhaps mentioned, most of the actresses are slaves. In serious drama or more sophisticated comedy, when women are permitted roles within it, the female roles usually being played by men, and the females are slaves, their collars are sometimes removed. Before this is done, however, usually a steel bracelet or anklet, locked, which they cannot remove, is placed on them. In this way, they continue, helplessly, to wear some token of bondage. This facilitates, in any possible dispute or uncertainty as to their status or condition, a clear determination in the matter, by anyone, of course, but in particular by guardsmen or magistrates, or otherwise duly authorized authorities.
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 122
"With your permission, Lady Telitsia?" inquired Boots, addressing himself politely to the haughty, rigid, proud, vain, heavily veiled, blue-clad free female standing in the front row below the stage.
"You may continue," she said.
"But you may find what ensues offensive," Boots warned her.
"Doubtless I will," she said. "And have no fear, I shall include it in my complaint to the proper magistrates."
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 129
Boots obliged. "Are you disrobing?" he asked. The men in the audience began to cry out with pleasure. Some struck their left shoulders in Gorean applause.
"Yes," called the Brigella. She was quite beautiful.
"I shall mention this in my complaint to the proper magistrates," said the free woman from her position near the stage.
Players of Gor Book 20 Pages 134 - 135
"Apparently you are a slave," he said, grimly. "You should not have tried to masquerade as a free woman. There are heavy penalties for that sort of thing."
She put her head in her hands, sobbing.
"I wonder if I should turn you over to magistrates," he said.
"Please, do not!" she wept.
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 145
"I will, before nightfall, and you may depend upon it," she said, "lodge my complaint with the magistrates. By tomorrow noon, you will be closed, forbidden to perform at the fair."
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 160
"If you are magistrates," he cried, "know that I have come on this camp of brigands and, in cognizance of my jeopardy, was making ready to defend myself!" He looked about, wildly, drawing back another pace or so. "Show yourself," he cried, "as befits your office, that of those who courageously do war with brigands, that of those who do nobly defend and support the law, or as plain honest men, if that you be, that I may ally myself with you, that we may then offer to one another, no, then pledge to one another, mutual protection and succor on these dark and dangerous roads."
It was very quiet, save mostly for the rustling and clicking of insects. Too I heard, intermittently, from somewhere far off, the cries of a tiny, horned gim.
"You do not show yourselves," called the man. "Good! Know then that I am a brigand, too! I feared you might be magistrates. It was thus that I spoke as I did.
Players of Gor Book 20 Pages 187 - 188
"I refuse!" she cried. "The very thought of it! The outrage! The indignity! How dare you even think of such a thing! I am of high caste! I am of the scribes! Wait until I bring this matter to the attention of magistrates!"
"As I may remind you, my dear," said Boots, patiently, "you are no longer of high caste nor of the scribes. Similarly, as I am sure you will recognize, at least upon reflection, you now have no standing before the law. You are now of no more interest to magistrates, in their official capacities, as opposed to their private capacities, than would be an urt or a sleen."
She regarded him, frightened.
"Your days of making a nuisance of yourself are now over," said Boots. "Indeed, I speculate that those very same magistrates whom you have so often inconvenienced would be quite pleased to learn that you are now, at last, no longer capable of pestering them with your inane, time-consuming nonsense. I doubt that they would wish to see you again, unless perhaps it would be to turn you naked and bound to your master, with the blows of a whip on your body, or perhaps, say, to have you serve them in a tavern, helpless in the modality that would then be yours, that of the total female slave."
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 201
"This is an outrage!" she cried. "It is an unspeakable insult! I shall have the magistrates on you for this!"
Players of Gor Book 20 Page 303
Contrariwise, almost no free woman would bare her legs. They would not dare to do so. They would be horrified even to think of it. The scandal of such an act could ruin a reputation. It is said on Gor that any woman who bares her legs is a slave. Indeed, in some cities a free woman who might be found with bared legs is taken in hand by magistrates, tried and sentenced to bondage. After the judge's decision has been enacted, its effect carried out upon her, reducing her to the status of goods, sometimes publicly, that she may be suitably disgraced, sometimes privately, by a contract slaver, that the sensitivities of free women in the city not be offended, she is hooded and transported, stripped and chained, freshly branded and collared, a property female, slave cargo, to a distant market where, once sold, she will begin her life anew, fearfully, as a purchased girl, tremulously as the helpless and lowly slave she now is.
Mercenaries of Gor Book 21 Page 69
There had even been some handbills distributed by boys about the city, and others, I had heard, had been tacked up on public boards. There had been signs painted too, I gathered, here and there among similar signs, usually on poorer streets, or in alleys, where magistrates, less inclined to object, were also less prone to patrol.
Dancer of Gor Book 22 Page 167
Similarly, if it seems understandable that, say, a high magistrate, a general, a Ubar, or such, might enjoy sitting in his pleasure gardens and inspecting his women, having them before him naked, or clothed according to his preferences, it is just as understandable that a less rich or well-fixed person might, similarly, on a more modest level, enjoy the sight of his girl, or girls.
Dancer of Gor Book 22 Page 260
"You received stolen goods," said the man.
"Not to my knowledge," said my master.
"An investigation might nonetheless prove you have no legal hold on her."
"Are you a magistrate, or a praetor's agent?" inquired my master, narrowly.
"No," said the fellow.
My master relaxed, visibly.
Dancer of Gor Book 22 Page 287
He was "recruiting" for the chains of work masters. To be sure, he must do this work surreptitiously. It would be quite unfortunate for him, I had gathered, if he were to be discovered to have been involved in such work. Judges, magistrates, and such, would not be likely to look indulgently on these activities.
Dancer of Gor Book 22 Page 306
"I sentence you to slavery," he said, uttering the sentence.
She trembled, sentenced.
"It only remains now," said Aemilianus, "for the sentence to be carried out. If you wish I, in the office of magistrate, shall carry it out. On the other hand, if you wish, you may yourself carry out the sentence."
"I?" she said.
"Yes," he said.
"You would have me proclaim myself slave?" she asked.
"Or I shall do it," he said. "In the end, it does not matter."
Renegades of Gor Book 23 Page 387
I had left some slaves beads in recompense, of course, pretty beads of cheap wood, such as are cast about in festivals and carnivals, sometimes even being seized up secretly by free women who put them on before their mirrors, in secret, as though they might be slaves. In many cities, incidentally, a woman who is discovered doing such a thing may be remanded to magistrates for impressment into bondage. There will then be nothing inappropriate, even from the legal point of view, in their wearing such ornaments, assuming that they have their master's permission.
Vagabonds of Gor Book 24 Page 69
"I am sure you are familiar with the law," said the first fellow, flanked by two magistrates.
"No!" she cried.
The magistrates were ex officio witnesses, who could certify the circumstances of the capture. The net was a stout one, and weighted.
"Any free woman who couches with another's slave, or readies herself to couch with another's slave, becomes herself a slave, and the slave of the slave's master. It is a clear law."
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 7
I saw the fellow who had been in the room emerge through the door. He was followed by the two magistrates, who had probably now made the entries in their records. They were followed by four guardsmen, in single file.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 11
I recalled the free female whose capture I had noted in Ar, that which had taken place in a street-level room in the Metellan district. Surely she must have known the law. The consorting of a free female with another man's slave renders her susceptible to the collar of the slave's master. The net had been cunningly arranged, that it might, when released, activated perhaps by springs or the pulling of a lever, fall and drape itself over the couch. It was clearly a device designed for such a purpose. The net and the room doubtless constituted a capture cubicle, simpler perhaps, but not unlike those in certain inns, in which a woman, lulled by the bolting on the doors, and feeling herself secure, may complete her toilet at leisure, bathing, combing her hair, perfuming herself and such, before the trap doors, dropped from beneath her, plunge her into the waiting arms of slavers. Guardsmen and magistrates, I had noted, had been in immediate attendance.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 42
My friend, the actor, magician, impresario and whatnot, Boots Tarsk-Bit, once narrowly escaped an impalement in Besnit on the charge of using false dice. He was, however, it seems, framed. At any rate the charges were dismissed when a pair of identical false dice turned up in the pouch of the arresting magistrate, the original pair having, interestingly, at about the same time, vanished.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 59
"No!" wept Claudia. "It is one thing to be captured by a man and taken to his tent, and put to his feet and made to serve, or to be sentenced by a magistrate in due course of law to slavery for crimes which I have actually committed, and another to stand here publicly shamed, before my enemy, a woman, in her triumph, to be consigned by her to helpless bondage."
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 150
"And what later," I asked, "in the edifice of the magistrates?"
"I was in a cell," she said, "naked, lying on some straw, chained by the neck to a wall."
"And your emotions?" I asked.
She looked up at me.
"My thigh was sore," she said. "I had been branded."
"Of course," I said.
"There were two collars on my neck," she said, "a light, temporary slave collar, identifying me as a slave provisionally in the custody of magistrates, and, over it, a retaining collar, that by means of which I was fastened to the wall."
"And your emotions?" I asked.
"I lay there," she said, "my fingers on the chain, near the retaining collar."
I looked at her.
"Serenity, contentment," she said. "Happiness. The fighting was over."
"When did you receive the collar of Appanius?" I asked.
"The next day," she said, "affixed on me by one of his agents. Later I was called for at the edifice of the magistrates by one of his slaves, driving a tharlarion wagon.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 309
"He will then presumably regard it as his work to keep the free woman, whoever she turns out to be, here until Appanius and the magistrates arrive."
"I would think so, Master," she said.
"Which arrival, as he understands it, will be in the neighborhood of a half past the sixth Ahn?"
"Yes, Master," she said.
"Good," I said. The original time of the assignation, conveyed to the slave, which he, in turn, would have conveyed to his master, was the seventh Ahn. Accordingly the master, and presumably two magistrates, who would act as official witnesses and be officers versed in certain matters, would wish to arrive early, presumably about half past the sixth Ahn, or, at any rate, at a decent interval before the seventh Ahn.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 414
"Yes," she said. "That is the door by means of which I was entered into this room. Appanius, and the magistrates, and others, apparently had entered through the back, or some side entrance."
"There is such an entrance," I said. "It lets out into an alley, a little further down the street. One then comes back to the street between buildings."
"That is, I believe," she said, "the way I left the premises. To be sure, once out in the street I was almost instantly disoriented."
I nodded.
"I did not even know where I was," she said, "until I was unhooded, and found myself chained by the neck in a magistrate's cell."
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 415
"The magistrates should arrive any moment," I said. "Presumably they will come to the back," he said.
"I would think so," I said. Surely they would have been here often enough in the past. Too, it did not seem likely they would wish to be seen entering by the street door. They would be, as far as they knew, keeping their appointment with Appanius and his men. When they arrived, of course, they would discover that a change of plans had occurred, and that it would not be Appanius for whom they would render their services, but another.
. . .
In the back room I tracked these matters by means of one of the observation portals. One of the two magistrates, he who was senior, Tolnar, of the second Octavii, an important gens but one independent of the well-known Octavii, sometimes spoken of simply as the Octavii, or sometimes as the first Octavii, deputy commissioner in the records office, much of which had been destroyed in a recent fire, was at the other portal. His colleague, Venlisius, a bright young man who was now, by adoption, a scion of the Toratti, was with him. Venlisius was in the same office. He was records officer, or archon of records, for the Metellan district, in which we were located. Both magistrates wore their robes, and fillets, of office. They also carried their wands of office, which, I suspect, from the look of them, and despite the weapons laws of Cos, contained concealed blades. I was pleased to hope that these fellows were such as to put the laws of Ar before the ordinances of Cos. I had requested that they dismiss their attendant guardsmen, which they had done. I did not anticipate that they would be needed.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Pages 441 - 442
"I am not only preparing to couch with you," she said. "I am prepared to couch with you." She then knelt on the couch, and back on her heels.
I glanced to Tolnar, the magistrate. He nodded.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Page 452
"What was your name?" inquired Tolnar. "We shall wish it for the records."
"I am Talena!" she cried. "I am Talena, Ubara of Ar! Down on your knees before me! I am Talena, Talena! Ubara of Ar! I am your Ubara!"
"You may, of course, attempt to conceal your former identity," said Tolnar. "At this point it is immaterial."
"I am Talena!" she cried.
"Perhaps you might think to delude a poor slave," said Tolnar, "but we are free men."
"Fools!" she wept.
"What was your name?" he asked.
"My name is Talena!" she said. "I am Ubara of Ar!"
"You would have us believe that Talena of Ar is a sensuous tart in need of sexual relief, a mere chit who would condescend to keep a rendezvous so shameful as this?"
"I am Talena!" she cried, squirming in the net. "Release me! I shall scream!"
"That would be interesting, if you are Talena," said Tolnar. "You would then choose to publicize, it seems, your whereabouts. You would choose to be discovered naked and netted, before magistrates, in a room in the Metellan district, having been prepared to couch with a slave?"
She threw her head down, angrily, on the furs. "I am Talena," she said. "Release me!"
"What is more pertinent to our purposes," said Tolnar, "is your legal status, or, in this case, it seems, your former legal status."
"Release me, fools!" she said.
"What was your legal status before you entered this room?" asked Tolnar.
"I was, and am, a free woman!" she said.
"Of Ar?" he asked.
"Yes!" she cried, angrily.
"That is the crux of the matter," said Tolnar. He glanced to Venlisius, who nodded.
"Do you doubt that I am Talena?" she demanded of Tolnar.
"Surely you must permit me to be skeptical," he smiled.
"I am she!" she cried. Then she looked wildly at Milo. "You know me!" she wept. "You can attest to my identity! You have seen me in the Central Cylinder! So, too, has that slut of a slave!"
"Stand," said Tolnar to Lavinia, who immediately complied.
"Please, Milo," begged the netted beauty, helplessly, pathetically, agonizingly, "do not lie! Tell the truth!"
He looked at her.
"Please, Milo!" she begged. "Tell them who I am!" How much she felt then dependent upon him, how much in his power! How different this was from her former mastery of him! How terrified she was that he might, for one reason or another, lie to the magistrates, putting her then before them as no more than a common, captured, compromised female.
"Who was she?" asked Tolnar of Milo.
"Talena, Ubara of Ar," said Milo.
"Ah!" she wept in relief.
Tolnar and Venlisius exchanged glances. They did not much relish this development.
"Release me, you sleen!" wept Talena, struggling futilely in the net.
"And you?" asked Tolnar of Lavinia, who was looking on the netted captive, indeed, a prisoner of the same cords which, months before, had held her with such similar perfection.
"Master?" asked Lavinia.
"Who was she?" said Tolnar.
"That, too, is my understanding," said Lavinia. "Talena, of Ar."
"Release me!" demanded the captive.
"What difference does it make," asked Marcus, "if, indeed, she is Talena of Ar?"
"Fool!" laughed the netted captive.
"From the legal point of view," said Tolnar, "it makes no difference, of course."
"Release me!" she said. "Do you think I am a common person? Do you think you can treat one of my importance in this fashion! I shall have Seremides have you boiled in oil!"
"I am of the second Octavii," said Tolnar. "My colleague is of the Toratti."
"Then you may be scourged and beheaded, or impaled!" she wept.
"You would have us neglect our duty?" inquired Tolnar. He was Gorean, of course.
"In this case," she snapped, "you are well advised to do so."
"That is quite possibly true," said Tolnar.
"The principle here, I gather," said Marcus, "is that the Ubara is above the law."
"The law in question is a serious one," said Tolnar. "It was promulgated by Marlenus, Ubar of Ubars."
"Surely," said Venlisius to the netted woman, "you do not put yourself on a level with the great Marlenus."
"It does not matter who is greater," she said. "I am Ubara!"
"The Ubara is above the law?" asked Marcus, who had an interest in such things.
"In a sense, yes," said Tolnar, "the sense in which she can change the law by decree."
"But she is subject to the law unless she chooses to change it?" asked Marcus.
"Precisely," said Tolnar. "And that is the point here."
"Whatever law it is," cried the netted woman, "I change it! I herewith change it!"
"How can you change it?" asked Tolnar.
"I am Ubara!" she said.
"You were Ubara," he said.
She cried out in misery, in frustration, in the net.
"Interesting," said Marcus.
"Release me!" demanded the woman.
"Do you think we are fond of she who was once Talena," asked Tolnar, "of she who betrayed Ar, and collaborated with her enemies?"
"Release me, if you value your lives!" she cried. "Seremides will wish me free! So, too, will Myron! So, too, will Lurius of Jad!"
"But we have taken an oath to uphold the laws of Ar," said Tolnar.
"Free me!" she said.
"You would have us compromise our honor?" asked Tolnar.
"I order you to do so," she said.
Tolnar smiled.
"Why do you smile?" she asked.
"How can a slave order a free person to do anything?" he asked.
"A slave!" she cried. "How dare you!"
"You are taken into bondage," said Tolnar, "under the couching laws of Marlenus of Ar. Any free woman who couches with, or prepares to couch with, a male slave, becomes herself a slave, and the property of the male slave's master."
"I, property!" she cried.
"Yes," said Tolnar.
Absurd!" she said.
"Not at all," he said. "It is, I assure you, all quite legal."
"Proceed then with your farce!" she cried. "I know Appanius well, and his position in this city is much dependent upon my support! Have I not freed him of numerous burdens? Have I not adjusted his taxes? Have I not spared his house, and those of other favorites, the exactions of the levies?"
"You acknowledge, then," asked Tolnar, "that you are a slave?"
"Yes," she said, angrily, "I am a slave! Now, summon Appanius, immediately, that I may be promptly freed! Then you will see to what fates I shall consign you!"
"But what if Appanius wishes you as a slave?" asked Marcus.
She laughed. "I see you do not know our dear Appanius," she said. "The most he would want from a woman would be to have her do his cleaning and scrub his floors!"
"But what if that is precisely what he has in mind for you?" asked Tolnar.
She turned white.
"Doubtless she would look well, performing lowly labors in chains," said Marcus.
"Perhaps, unknown to you," said Tolnar, "Appanius is a patriot."
"Never!" she said. "Bring him here!"
"What if he would keep you in his house as a slave?" asked Marcus.
"Perhaps you think you could make your former identity known," said Tolnar. "That might be amusing."
"'Amusing'?" she asked.
"Who would believe that once you had been Talena, the Ubara of Ar?" asked Tolnar.
"More likely," said Venlisius, "you would be whipped, as a mad slave."
"While," said Tolnar, "another woman, suitably coached, and veiled, would take your place in the Central Cylinder. From the point of view of the public, things would be much the same."
"Bring Appanius here!" she cried. "I know him. I can speak with him. I can make him see, I assure you, what is to his advantage! This is all some preposterous mistake. Free me! This is all some terrible misunderstanding! Bring Appanius here! I demand it!"
"But what has Appanius to do with this?" asked Tolnar.
"I do not understand," said the woman.
Tolnar regarded her.
"He has everything to do with it," she said. "He is Milo's master!"
"No," said Tolnar.
The prisoner turned her head about, not easily, in the net.
"Appanius is your master!" she said to Milo.
"No," he said.
"Yes!" she cried. "He is your master. He is also the master of that short-haired slut!"
"No!" said Lavinia.
"You did not call me 'Mistress'," said the prisoner.
"Why should I?" asked Lavinia.
"It is true that you belong to the master of Milo," said Tolnar, "but it is false that the master of Milo is Appanius."
"To whom, then, do I belong?" she asked, aghast.
"Let the papers be prepared, and the measurements, and prints, taken," said Tolnar.
"Yes, Tolnar," said Venlisius.
"Papers! Measurements! Prints!" she protested.
"I think you can understand," said Tolnar, "that in a case such as this, such documentations, guarantees and precautions are not out of order."
"No! No!" she cried.
Tolnar and Venlisius put their wands of office to the side and went to the back room, to obtain the necessary papers and materials.
"You!" cried the prisoner, looking at Marcus. "It is then you to whom I belong!"
He merely regarded her.
"Who are you?" she cried.
"It does not matter," he said.
"I will buy my freedom!" she said. "I will give you a thousand pieces of gold! Two thousand! Ten thousand! Name your price!"
"But you have nothing," he said. "No more than a kaiila, or sleen."
"Contact Seremides!" she said. "Contact Myron, Polemarkos of Temos! They will arrange my ransom."
"Ransom or price?" asked Marcus.
"Price!" she said, angrily.
"But you are not, as of this moment, for sale," he said.
"Sleen!" she wept. She struggled but I, behind her, kept her well in the net.
At this point Tolnar and Venlisius reentered the room and, in a few moments, were in the process of filling out the papers. These included an extremely complete description of the woman, exact even to details such as the structure of her ear lobes. Tolnar then, with a graduated tape, reaching in and about the net, and moving the woman, as necessary, took a large number of measurements, these being recorded by Venlisius. Additional measurements were taken with other instruments, such as a calipers. With these were recorded such data as the width and length of fingers and toes, the width of her heels, the lovely tiny distance between her nostrils, and so on. The result of this examination, of course, was to produce a network of data which, to a statistical certainty, far beyond the requirements of law, would be unique to a given female. Then, one hand at a time, pulled a bit from the net, then reinserted in it, her fingerprints were taken. Following this, her toeprints were taken. Then, the woman shaken, tears on the furs, was again fully within the net, on her belly. Her fingers and toes were dark with ink, from the taking of the prints.
Magicians of Gor Book 25 Pages 453 - 457
A woman behaving in this fashion and accordingly being suspected of the collar, of trying desperately to conceal her femininity by this ruse, may be remanded to free women for an examination. If a brand is found the woman will be stripped and bound by the free women, switched liberally, for there is little love lost between free women and slaves, and then turned over to magistrates, to be returned to the mercies of her master.
Prize of Gor Book 27 Page 216
How beautiful, too, were their faces! And suddenly, she was delighted that her own face, too, despite the contempt this might elicit from free women, would be bared, and must be bared, on this world. She, as slave, she knew, would have no choice in the matter. And this pleased her. She knew that she had a very pretty face; she was certain of that; it was exquisite, delicate, feminine, sensitive, lovely. She was sure that men would like it. But, too, she was frightened. It was the sort of face, she had learned, that called forth the master in a man. To be sure, she might be transiently sensitive to its exposure in a given context, as in the presence of a contemptuous free woman, or perhaps before magistrates, and officials, but that was only to be expected in this culture, with its particular views.
Prize of Gor Book 27 Page 223
Did they think she was a free woman, of wealth and title, of placement and connections, who might threaten them, one to whom magistrates would carefully attend?
Prize of Gor Book 27 Page 644
"The matter became public knowledge shortly after the rising of the people, the return of Marlenus," he said. "Two magistrates furnished the details, Tolnar, of the second Octavii, and Venlisius, by adoption, a scion of the Toratti. The former Ubara had been embonded in accord with the couching law of Marlenus of Ar, any free woman who couches with, or prepares to couch with, a male slave, becomes herself a slave, and the property of the male slave's master. She was preparing to couch with Milo, a slave, and actor, when apprehended, and, it seems, you were at that time, by some stratagem or subterfuge, the master of the slave, Milo, and so became the master of the former free woman, Talena of Ar. The whole thing was very cleverly done, it seems. Considering the nature of the case, papers were carefully prepared, and measurements and prints taken, that there be no mistake about the legality of the proceeding, nor any possible problem later in the exact identification of the slave.
Swordsmen of Gor Book 29 Pages 450 - 451
Possession, particularly after a lengthy interval, is often regarded as decisive, by praetors, archons, magistrates, scribes of the law, and such. What is of most importance to the law is not so much that a particular individual owns a slave as that she is owned by someone, that she is absolutely and perfectly owned.
Swordsmen of Gor Book 29 Page 452
Clipped coins are easy to identify but then, of course, one must bring forth the scales, and, not unoften, as well, rough silver or gold, unminted, is presented, perhaps melted droplets, or pieces cut from silver or golden vessels and goblets, which items will also require judicious determinations. Negotiations and bargainings, over the scales, often grow heated. The advantage of courses, lies with the stallsman. Complaints may be lodged with either of the two praetors, who, interestingly, though magistrates of Ar, apparently strive to adjudicate matters to the best of their lights. Their efforts not only redound to the honor of Ar, but, too, one supposes, tend to preserve the value and integrity of the market, which, in the long view, is doubtless in the best interest of the city's commerce. To be sure, major transactions often take place near the walls, and outside them, in the wholesale markets.
Conspirators of Gor Book 31 Page 273 - 274
"One always hears things," I said, warily.
"I am not an investigating magistrate," he said, "with a rack in the next room."
"I understand," I said.
Conspirators of Gor Book 31 Page 521
In problematical situations, escaped slaves are commonly publicly exhibited for a time, chained under a pertinent notice and then, if not claimed, auctioned, or delivered to the finder. Sometimes a slave is tortured and, in this case, she is likely to acknowledge herself the slave of anyone whom the magistrate might suggest, perhaps a relative in another village.
Smugglers of Gor Book 32 Page 442
"I will report the capture of the slave to the magistrates," said Axel.
Smugglers of Gor Book 32 Page 469
http://www.thegoreancave.com/civil/magistrate.php
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