Found a few things of interest to read later.

... look and see...
Seems like my collection of information keeps growing, but it isn't sorted some place nice.  

Gor SL

Miscellaneous => Questions, requests or critique about GOR-SL => Topic started by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 05:03:03

Title: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 05:03:03 I see within the scribe caste section here and in many websites around the internet and in many cities in SL gor that magistrates have been adopted to the scribe caste.    I ask because I see no evidence of this in the books.  I see conjecture and supposition within the Luthar scrolls,  I see the same conjecture and supposition within the laws of various cities but the books themselves are vague on the topic.  In the process of being vague we see examples of magistrates not simply being those that sit behind a bench presiding over cases but actively out engaging citizens in enforcing the laws of the land.  We see them as well enacting punishments themselves in some cases of executions and the like.    I know the books mentions "scribes of the law"  but do they actually say the scribes of the law ARE the magistrates?  They also talk of litigators which could very well be what a scribe of law is,  a defense attourney as such.    The books also discuss magistrates as appointed positions.  A position of office appointed by whatever governmental body is in power whether it be an admin,  Ubar or the like.  So is the office of magistrate appointed by the government of the caste of scribes?  Does the caste of scribes thusly control the laws not just in penning them?  Do they control the government thusly?    Serious question looking for serious answers.  it is my position that the office of magistrate is not a sub caste of the scribes.  It is an office that may be appointed to any caste though typically a high caste including merchants in the case of cities run by merchants whereas often in that city the merchant caste is elevated to high caste (not talking about merchant magistrates for merchant law) Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 05:51:21 A few quotes to give some life to my thoughts.    With this letter," I said, indicating the document, "you may return when you wish. I would advise you, however, should the ruling, as I would expect, be in your favor, to consider the adoption of an honest occupation. If the magistrates do not apprehend you you might, in Port Kar, run afoul of the caste of thieves. They are sometimes jealous of their prerogatives." Explorers of Gor     Book 13     Page 463   Let us suppose that the Gorean youth buys his first girl. Before this, of course, he may have used house slaves or the girls in the paga taverns. Indeed, in gangs of roaming youths, he may have caught and raped slave girls on errands in his own city. Some young men regard this as an interesting sport. If a magistrate should chance upon them in some alley he will commonly say, "Thigh," to them, and they will turn the girl, so that he may see if she is branded or not. If she is branded, he will commonly continue on his rounds. The unauthorized rape of slave girls, without the permission of their masters, is officially frowned on in most cities, but, too, it is as often winked at. Guardsman of Gor     Book 16     Page 184   Such itinerant troupes, theatrical troupes, carnival groupings, and such, are not uncommon on Gor. They consist usually of rogues and outcasts. With their wagons and tents, often little more than a skip and a jump ahead of creditors and magistrates, they roam from place to place, rigging their simple stages in piazzas and squares, in yards and markets, wherever an audience may be found, even at the dusty intersections of country crossroads. Players of Gor     Book 20     Page 9   There had even been some handbills distributed by boys about the city, and others, I had heard, had been tacked up on public boards. There had been signs painted too, I gathered, here and there among similar signs, usually on poorer streets, or in alleys, where magistrates, less inclined to object, were also less prone to patrol. Dancer of Gor     Book 22     Page 167   My friend, the actor, magician, impresario and whatnot, Boots Tarsk-Bit, once narrowly escaped an impalement in Besnit on the charge of using false dice. He was, however, it seems, framed. At any rate the charges were dismissed when a pair of identical false dice turned up in the pouch of the arresting magistrate, the original pair having, interestingly, at about the same time, vanished. Magicians of Gor     Book 25     Page 59     Similarly, if it seems understandable that, say, a high magistrate, a general, a Ubar, or such, might enjoy sitting in his pleasure gardens and inspecting his women, having them before him naked, or clothed according to his preferences, it is just as understandable that a less rich or well-fixed person might, similarly, on a more modest level, enjoy the sight of his girl, or girls. Dancer of Gor     Book 22     Page 260 Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Poisonous Adored on 03. April 2011, 10:31:10 I would say that they can belong to many castes, merchant, blue caste, red caste....   In hunters, there is a quote, mentioning the magistrates of the Merchant Caste, when Tina the thief is sentenced to slavery in Lydius....   I know someone who is my favorite encyclopedia for Gor, I will ask him if he has this quote somewhere  ;D   Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 10:40:23 Poisonous -  Yes there is specifically a merchant magistrate mentioned in the books.  That is a specific magistrate to deal with merchant law which is the system of law setup primarily for things outside of cities as the city's laws extend no further then their gates,  or if the city so wishes to enforce them the immediate outlying areas.  Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 11:29:31 I was discussing this with someone a few weeks ago.  I also believe they could be of various castes and certainly Merchant Magistrates are desribed, as are Slaver Magistrates to deal with situations under Merchant Law outside of the city walls where civil law would be irrelevant.    There are two named scribes though,  Tomar and Venlisius,  who were both record-keepers and said to be Magistrates.    "In the back room I tracked these matters by means of one of the observation portals. One of the two magistrates, he who was senior, Tolmar, of the second Octavii, an important gens but one independent of the well-known Octavii, sometimes spoken of simply as the Octavii, or sometimes as the first Octavii, deputy commissioner in the records office, much of which had been destroyed in a recent fire, was at the other portal. His colleague, Venlisius, a bright young man who was now, by adoption, a scion of the Toratti, was with him. Venlisius was in the same office. He was records officer, or archon of records, for the Metallan district, in which we were located. Both magistrates wore their robes, and fillets, of office. They also carried their wands of office, which, I suspect, from the look of them, and despite the weapons laws of Cos, contained concealed blades.  I was pleased to hope that these fellows were such as to put the laws of Ar before the ordinances of Cos." Magicians of Gor   And we know record keepers were of the Blue Caste:   "Many castes, incidentally, have branches and divisions. Lawyers and Scholars, for example, and Record Keepers, Teachers, Clerks, Historians and Accountants are all Scribes." Assassin of Gor   I believe Law is a function of Scribes for Civil Law and Courts.  There is a reason they are the highest caste second only to Initiates, who rule "ecclesiastical" Law and Courts.  Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Anarch Allegiere on 03. April 2011, 11:41:15 Magistrates could've been from all castes.   Merchant-magistrates were from the merchant caste usually though and dealt in matters of trade and merchant law beyond the city walls.   Don't expect any city or gorean sim out there to RP their laws only extending to their walls though. -However- the right of enslavement fell under merchant law. So FW being collared by their own men outside their city gates still would be illegal. Cities sometimes would try to enforce their laws outside their city though.   I remember standing at the gates cuffing two free women across the face while the Magistrate on the city walls was shouting down at me to stop, where I kindly reminded him his laws didn't extend to where I was standing. Good times...   Also as noted above... the court of Initiates is another subtelty that often isn't RPed in any city sims. They could pull normal cases to their own court and pass judgement on their own. Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: thyri Carver on 03. April 2011, 11:49:02 When you think of magistrates, the books present magistrates in one of two ways.  One they present the magistrate much in the way americans see a sheriff.  At least in my state, we have to vote for the sheriff, the sheriff makes a lot of policy.  His job is the interpretation of the law and its enforcement.  Now one way you can see this sheriff is this man is a law enforcer, thus assuming warrior.  But then we look at how law was practiced in ancient rome and greece. You had more on the spot justice in Rome and Greece.  You had the law interpreter (like the sheriff) as well as law enforcers (like policemen or guardsmen in the gorean sense).  The law interpreter would serve on the spot justice, thus he would need to understand and interpret law very quickly.  This is not a warrior's realm.  Think of warriors more like the army.  Their job is more matters of enforcing interstate law.   As for merchants, again, we're dealing with law enforcers and law interpreters here.  Merchant law interpreters could be specialized magistrates or legal scribes.  These scribes would be trained in the interpretation of merchant law which is the only law that is actually common throughout all known Gor rather than a local magistrate who's juristiction would be local law (again with the sheriff example).   A point of note here.  We're dealing in the man world at this point.  I cannot see a woman being a magistrate simply because of the danger involved in passing sentence on the spot on a man.  No matter how heavily guarded she may be, its still a man's world and in that man's world the man's word is greater than a woman's word.  Yah ladies I know it sucks, but women can be involved in the legal profession as lawyers and more like paralegals rather than those actually passing sentence.   Think of the magistrate as an armed roving judge.  Least thats how I think of them   The one thing a lot of people forget about the scribes is that it encompasses SO much.  Think about how much of society is written down.  The scribe can serve any caste especially with merchants.  Scribes range from the clerk at Kinkos all the way up to a supreme court justice... rather far reaching I'd say.  In SL we tend to lump all scribes in some sort of multirole of recordkeeper, librarian, law interpreter, copyright, administrator, and lawyer as well as goodness knows how many other things.  There were specialties however.  I know I wouldnt want the guy at Kinkos to be serving as a judge at one of my trials.  And I sure wouldnt want Clarance Thomas making my copies at Kinkos   Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 12:11:34 Quote from: thyri Carver on 03. April 2011, 11:49:02 As for merchants, again, we're dealing with law enforcers and law interpreters here.  Merchant law interpreters could be specialized magistrates or legal scribes.   I agree with almost everything you said (particulary about women magistrates) .. but like the " what came first the chicken or the egg " scenario   - i think with with merchant magistrates it seems to be the same conundrum - were they a merchant first and foremost?  or were they a scribe?   ...Behind the wagon, in the white robes trimmed with gold and purple of Merchant Magistrates, came five men. I recognized them as judges. ---Hunters of Gor, 3:49   Is it a  Scribe wearing white as the colour of justice (with the gold of the merchant and the purple of power) or the white of  a member of the Merchant caste?  Tricky.   ??? Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 13:17:57 Thyri -  Yes roaming judges that enforce law not simply preside over it.  I believe we are on the same page on this part.  Not so much on some of the others.  Some of that is covered below here.    Serene -  If you follow logic to its conclusion however you have no choice but to conclude that these are very specific types of magistrates,  magistrates of records.  It states they both work in the records office and are magistrates.  One could not logically conclude that a magistrate from the records office is dealing with issues of theft for example.  So really this quote only shows (and really not but we are just concluding thusly that it does) that magistrates whos job is literally determining if paperwork is valid are scribes or at least are likely to be scribes.  Your quote instead of showing magistrates are in and of themselves scribes does actually highlight that magistrates would be specialized into different sections based on what type of law they were enforcing.  One would assume a magistrate enforcing laws in civil courts the legality of this or that document might be scribes.  The same logic would lead us to believe a magistrate patrolling the street (as some of my quotes indicated they did) would be something else entirely.  It would require a different skill set then simply paperwork which despite Thyri's point that scribes can be the kinkos guy or the SC justice those two positions do have one thing in common,  they both deal pretty specifically with documents.    Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 13:37:49 It seems pretty clear to me that Law is the realm of Scribes with all its subcastes and variances and yes, special areas such as the record keepers in the example.  I cant see the builders, or physicians being involved apart from as the kind of *professional witness* type role - and warriors perhaps would be guards/magistrates of a type that may act on warrants.. but it makes perfect sense that the Scribes, being of the highest caste ( bar initiates ) , were the ones that would be versed in law and legal proceedings, the judge and jurys.. the law makers and the ones dealing with or delegating the consequences of not acting upon it. Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 13:50:52 Quote from: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 13:37:49 It seems pretty clear to me that Law is the realm of Scribes with all its subcastes and variances and yes, special areas such as the record keepers in the example.  I cant see the builders, or physicians being involved apart from as the kind of *professional witness* type role - and warriors perhaps would be guards/magistrates of a type that may act on warrants.. but it makes perfect sense that the Scribes, being of the highest caste ( bar initiates ) , were the ones that would be versed in law and legal proceedings, the judge and jurys.. the law makers and the ones dealing with or delegating the consequences of not acting upon it. The problem is if we take what you just said here to its logical conclusion only Initiates would ever deal with the law or ever be in any official position of a city.  They are after all the highest caste.  Lets say we exclude initiates because we want too.  Ok now that leaves scribes as the highest castes.  By your logic,  being the highest caste is why it is clear they would handle all this stuff then it would be clear they should be the only leaders of cities.  We know this to not be the case though even discounting ubarates.  We know this from this quote.   "Kazrak, who had been Administrator of the City for several years, had been popular but his straightforward attention, after he had put aside the Red of the Warrior and donned the Brown of the Administrator....."  assassin of gor   Administrators were not a caste but a position,  so the admin was a warrior.  Why would a warrior be an admin,  he is the lowest of the high castes.    Why would a physician or a builder not be a magistrate or any position of office in government?  That is the problem I have with saying only scribes are magistrates.  The logic that is put behind it followed to its logical conclusion dictates that the government is run in whole by and only by scribes.  We simply know this to not be true in the books in any sense of the word true.    Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 14:16:50 Bearing in mind I am only debating here the city-state, not the various other cultures on gor, I am not excluding Initiates on the basis I just want to, but that its quite clear they deal with the edicts of the Priest Kings, not man made law (even though they do try to interfere on occasion)   Ubars are warriors and are only placed within city leadership in times of war.  Its a very specific role and usually temporary.  An administrator would then take over the leadership role.  But this would be to deal with the day to day running of the city affairs, not the application of justice.  One from the Warrior caste would make perfect sense as they are trained in skills such as leadership of men and the command and authority that would be required. Caste codes and councils would run alongside the *main* legal system as we know warriors can call court - but this isnt a matter of Law and is often shown to be in conflict.    Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 14:52:50 Quote from: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 14:16:50 Bearing in mind I am only debating here the city-state, not the various other cultures on gor, I am not excluding Initiates on the basis I just want to, but that its quite clear they deal with the edicts of the Priest Kings, not man made law (even though they do try to interfere on occasion)   Ubars are warriors and are only placed within city leadership in times of war.  Its a very specific role and usually temporary.  An administrator would then take over the leadership role.  But this would be to deal with the day to day running of the city affairs, not the application of justice.  One from the Warrior caste would make perfect sense as they are trained in skills such as leadership of men and the command and authority that would be required. Caste codes and councils would run alongside the *main* legal system as we know warriors can call court - but this isnt a matter of Law and is often shown to be in conflict.    Yes I know what an Ubar is.  I specifically mentioned it as being discounted so it would not be brought up since it is a special situation.    I mentioned Initiates because they are the highest of all castes and your post used caste "ranking" as the reason scribes are of course magistrates.  The fact that Norman specifically set them as the highest caste but minimized their role in civil order does thusly show evidence that simply being of a higher caste does not elevate anyone to power or authority of any type.  The conflicts mentioned between city leadership and the initiates are also a perfect example of lower castes refusing the rule of another simply for caste.    As far as a city Administrator goes yes those qualities would be developed well within the warrior caste but as well in any of the castes.  As you would work your way up within your occupation of any caste that would give you note to be considered for administrator you would almost certainly have had to lead men.  I would also say that if your position would be true and warriors would be typical administrators then the positions of government not run by caste would often be filled with those of the warriors as those are the men the administrator would trust.  Specifically roles suited to a warriors abilities like that of the patrolling "sherif" to steal from Thyri's example of what they believe a magistrate embodies.    On the topic of the warrior caste they would also logically give other qualities that would be well suited for the patrolling sherif type magistrate as mentioned in several quotes and indeed others have accepted as a vision of the Gorean magistrate. Remember the warriors were not just a bunch of knuckleheads that ran in swinging swords no matter how many people portray they that way in SL.  They were thoughtful,  deliberate and cunning.  Perfect marriage of attributes combined with being able to run in swinging a sword if need be for the magistrate listed in my quotes from the books.    This thread is however not to say magistrates would be warriors.  I believe each of the high castes would have qualities suited well for being a magistrate.    The builder would have a highly nimble mind,  being able to engineer grand structures which would be highly useful to a magistrate.    The physician and the scribe would have shown focus and discipline specifically physicians in their learning of anatomy and medicine and scribes beyond the "kinkos" type job in proofing documents and the like.  Such discipline and focus would suite a magistrate well.    The warrior would have discipline,  deliberate thought,  strategy and tactical knowledge that can translate to understanding arguments as well as the ability to swing a sword when needed on patrol.  Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 15:46:06 Quote from: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 14:52:50 I mentioned Initiates because they are the highest of all castes and your post used caste "ranking" as the reason scribes are of course magistrates.  The fact that Norman specifically set them as the highest caste but minimized their role in civil order does thusly show evidence that simply being of a higher caste does not elevate anyone to power or authority of any type.  The conflicts mentioned between city leadership and the initiates are also a perfect example of lower castes refusing the rule of another simply for caste.  Norman obviously created the ranking system for a reason.  I haven’t made it up !   The initiates are the supposed representatives of the Priest Kings in Gorean society.   I would say that elevates these men to the greatest power and authority within cities along with the supposed granted immortality and alleged ability to deal out the blue flame death.  They work outside and beyond and above civil law, which is why they have no part in it.  And its certainly quoted that a member of the low caste could never rule or become Admin of a city or it would fall to ruin.  So, to me at least, rank of caste is just as important as caste itself in Gor.  As for the conflicts, I cant think of one example where the Initiates didn’t get their way eventually - a good example being Marlenus over-ruling the Initiates when trying to stop Flaminius and the Dar-Kosis immunisation.  The work ended up being destroyed anyway.    The patrolling sheriff type example I see as guards, not magistrates.  They are working on behalf of a magistrate.    I see the governments consisting of elected Admins and elder type leaders of all Castes.  I don’t doubt the Admin could be from any caste even though I favor the warriors from the examples in the books, but these would NOT be magistrates.  Civil Law would be only one subject of the government after all.  Our members of Parliament deal with the affairs of the country, not individual cases of theft or those breaking the law.   They may introduce and pass new laws - but I would still say the blue caste then  pen those laws and are the dealers of justice outside separate Caste councils.   Enforcing them would be the job of the Warrior Caste.  Not because they are knuckleheads - but because it is their job to protect and defend the city.  I see NO evidence to the contrary.        Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 16:27:13 Quote from: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 15:46:06 Quote from: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 14:52:50 I mentioned Initiates because they are the highest of all castes and your post used caste "ranking" as the reason scribes are of course magistrates.  The fact that Norman specifically set them as the highest caste but minimized their role in civil order does thusly show evidence that simply being of a higher caste does not elevate anyone to power or authority of any type.  The conflicts mentioned between city leadership and the initiates are also a perfect example of lower castes refusing the rule of another simply for caste.  Norman obviously created the ranking system for a reason.  I havent made it up !   The initiates are the supposed representatives of the Priest Kings in Gorean society.   I would say that elevates these men to the greatest power and authority within cities along with the supposed granted immortality and alleged ability to deal out the blue flame death.  They work outside and beyond and above civil law, which is why they have no part in it.  And its certainly quoted that a member of the low caste could never rule or become Admin of a city or it would fall to ruin.  So, to me at least, rank of caste is just as important as caste itself in Gor.  As for the conflicts, I cant think of one example where the Initiates didnt get their way eventually - a good example being Marlenus over-ruling the Initiates when trying to stop Flaminius and the Dar-Kosis immunisation.  The work ended up being destroyed anyway.    The patrolling sheriff type example I see as guards, not magistrates.  They are working on behalf of a magistrate.    I see the goverments consisting of elected Admins and elder type leaders of all Castes.  I dont doubt the Admin could be from any caste even though I favour the warriors from the examples in the books, but these would NOT be magistrates.  Civil Law would be only one subject of the government after all.  Our members of Parliment deal with the affairs of the country, not individual cases of theft or those breaking the law.   They may introduce and pass new laws - but I would still say the blue caste then  pen those laws and are the dealers of justice outside seperate Caste councils.   Enforcing them would be the job of the Warrior Caste.  Not because they are knuckleheads - but because it is their job to protect and defend the city.  I see NO evidence to the contrary.      No evidence of the contrary?  Really?    My friend, the actor, magician, impresario and whatnot, Boots Tarsk-Bit, once narrowly escaped an impalement in Besnit on the charge of using false dice. He was, however, it seems, framed. At any rate the charges were dismissed when a pair of identical false dice turned up in the pouch of the arresting magistrate, the original pair having, interestingly, at about the same time, vanished. Magicians of Gor     Book 25     Page 59   Judges do not arrest people.  Doing an arrest is law enforcement.    Let us suppose that the Gorean youth buys his first girl. Before this, of course, he may have used house slaves or the girls in the paga taverns. Indeed, in gangs of roaming youths, he may have caught and raped slave girls on errands in his own city. Some young men regard this as an interesting sport. If a magistrate should chance upon them in some alley he will commonly say, "Thigh," to them, and they will turn the girl, so that he may see if she is branded or not. If she is branded, he will commonly continue on his rounds. The unauthorized rape of slave girls, without the permission of their masters, is officially frowned on in most cities, but, too, it is as often winked at. Guardsman of Gor     Book 16     Page 184   Directly and explicitly showing a magistrate patrolling and doing rounds.    There had even been some handbills distributed by boys about the city, and others, I had heard, had been tacked up on public boards. There had been signs painted too, I gathered, here and there among similar signs, usually on poorer streets, or in alleys, where magistrates, less inclined to object, were also less prone to patrol. Dancer of Gor     Book 22     Page 167   Directly talking about magistrates patrolling,  and indicating much as is in todays world the law enforcers (the magistrates) are less prone to patrol the poor neighborhoods.    I can understand having an opinion,  but to say you see no evidence when I have providing direct quotes supporting explicitly my assertation that magistrates are part of the enforcement so entrenched in the enforcement that they patrol streets looking for crimes and criminals..... there are no words for it.  Your opinion if you can find room for it despite the evidence against it are fine but please do not say I have not given evidence.        Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 16:33:08 Not one of those quotes link Caste to Magistrate.  The only quotes that do link magistrates to Scribes.  Thats the evidence I meant was lacking and which was your original quesion.  :)   Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 16:52:17 Quote from: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 16:33:08 Not one of those quotes link Caste to Magistrate.  The only quotes that do link magistrates to Scribes.  Thats the evidence I meant was lacking and which was your original quesion.  :) And which quote states magistrates are scribes? Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 16:58:12 The one I already posted Tariq   "In the back room I tracked these matters by means of one of the observation portals. One of the two magistrates, he who was senior, Tolmar, of the second Octavii, an important gens but one independent of the well-known Octavii, sometimes spoken of simply as the Octavii, or sometimes as the first Octavii, deputy commissioner in the records office, much of which had been destroyed in a recent fire, was at the other portal. His colleague, Venlisius, a bright young man who was now, by adoption, a scion of the Toratti, was with him. Venlisius was in the same office. He was records officer, or archon of records, for the Metallan district, in which we were located. Both magistrates wore their robes, and fillets, of office. They also carried their wands of office, which, I suspect, from the look of them, and despite the weapons laws of Cos, contained concealed blades.  I was pleased to hope that these fellows were such as to put the laws of Ar before the ordinances of Cos."   There is no argument that record keepers are Scribes.  And here they are described as magistrates.  Also the end of the quote clearly shows they were not all the mild mannered scholars we often think they are, but carry concealed blades to uphold laws. Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 17:04:15 Quote from: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 16:58:12 The one I already posted Tariq   "In the back room I tracked these matters by means of one of the observation portals. One of the two magistrates, he who was senior, Tolmar, of the second Octavii, an important gens but one independent of the well-known Octavii, sometimes spoken of simply as the Octavii, or sometimes as the first Octavii, deputy commissioner in the records office, much of which had been destroyed in a recent fire, was at the other portal. His colleague, Venlisius, a bright young man who was now, by adoption, a scion of the Toratti, was with him. Venlisius was in the same office. He was records officer, or archon of records, for the Metallan district, in which we were located. Both magistrates wore their robes, and fillets, of office. They also carried their wands of office, which, I suspect, from the look of them, and despite the weapons laws of Cos, contained concealed blades.  I was pleased to hope that these fellows were such as to put the laws of Ar before the ordinances of Cos."   There is no argument that record keepers are Scribes.  And here they are described as magistrates.  Also the end of the quote clearly shows they were not all the mild mannered scholars we often think they are, but carry concealed blades to uphold laws. There is doubt if they are scribes of the records office.  It does not say they are.  it says they are magistrates of the records office.  If a scribe is working for the the first sword it does not make him a warrior,  he is a scribe working for the warriors.  Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 17:37:52 Again I don't understand your point.  It is quite clear they are record officers.  Scribes were the record keepers in your own words whether they worked in a record office, a warriors hall or Doves Tarnhouse.  They are still Scribes?  And here they are also clearly described as Magistrates.    I suggest you read, or re-read Magicians of Gor and where Tolmar ( a record keeper IE Scribe ) interrogates Talena as Magistrate.    I really dont want to debate this anymore unless you find a quote relating another caste to a Magistrate.  Its quite clear for me.  Though others may have other ideas....    Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Falconer McKeenan on 03. April 2011, 17:38:14 Watches and listens with interest as the debate continues.   Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 17:52:07 Quote from: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 17:37:52 Again I don't understand your point.  It is quite clear they are record officers.  Scribes were the record keepers in your own words whether they worked in a record office, a warriors hall or Doves Tarnhouse.  They are still Scribes?  And here they are also clearly described as Magistrates.    I suggest you read, or re-read Magicians of Gor and where Tolmar ( a record keeper IE Scribe ) interrogates Talena as Magistrate.    I really dont want to debate this anymore unless you find a quote relating another caste to a Magistrate.  Its quite clear for me.  Though others may have other ideas....    Your quote does NOT equate a caste to magistrate.  There is literally nothing in your quote that says these 2 men are record keepers.  They are magistrates,  officers of the government.  When they say office of in the books it is always designating positions like administrator,  magistrate and ambassador.  At no point in any of the books,  including your quote do they once name any of the three offices listed to any caste.  The admin wears brown.  The ambassador wears a gold sash indicating his office.  The magistrates were fillets of office.  There is a theme here and I hope you are seeing it because it exists.   You can debate or not,  refusing to discuss does not make your point right no more then my interest in discussion makes my point right.  Your quote however never says they are record keepers,  and no matter how much you try to spin the debate you cannot change that fact.  Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 18:10:37 Sighs.  - "There is literally nothing in your quote that says these 2 men are record keepers."   "He was records officer, or archon of records, for the Metallan district"   I see that as a record keeper - you dont.  We can go in circles all day about it.  I' rather not.  You cant discuss a complete disagreement about something.  I see no theme.  Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Laja DeCuir on 03. April 2011, 18:13:45 hm...due to my knowledge Magistrates belong to the Merchnats or the Scribes. Those who were well versed in Merchant Law, were Magistrates and of the Merchant Caste Quote from: Hunters of Gor Behind the wagon, in the white robes, trimmed with gold and purple, of merchant magistrates, came five men. I recognized them as judges. But mostly you will find the Magsitrates as part of the Scribes, because law is a funtions of the scribes as we all know. Also Magistrates usually would immo morelikely be part of one of the high castes. At least we have this quote that was posted before Quote from: Magicians of Gor In the back room I tracked these matters by means of one of the observation portals. One of the two magistrates, he who was senior, Tolmar, of the second Octavii, an important gens but one independent of the well-known Octavii, sometimes spoken of simply as the Octavii, or sometimes as the first Octavii, deputy commissioner in the records office, much of which had been destroyed in a recent fire, was at the other portal. His colleague, Venlisius, a bright young man who was now, by adoption, a scion of the Toratti, was with him. Venlisius was in the same office. He was records officer, or archon of records, for the Metallan district, in which we were located. Both magistrates wore their robes, and fillets, of office. They also carried their wands of office, which, I suspect, from the look of them, and despite the weapons laws of Cos, contained concealed blades. I will look if I find other quotes ;) Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 18:22:22 And a quote to confirm about the Warriors usually being the Admins of the city.     The Initiates are sometimes thought of as the highest of the five high castes, and the Warriors as the least of the five high castes. In actual fact, the Warriors commonly produce the administrators and ubars for a city. It is not easy in a world such as this to deprive those who are skilled with weapons their share of authority. If it is not given to them, they will take it. ... ---Witness of Gor, 11:225 Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 18:23:38 Quote from: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 18:10:37 Sighs.  - "There is literally nothing in your quote that says these 2 men are record keepers."   "He was records officer, or archon of records, for the Metallan district"   I see that as a record keeper - you dont.  We can go in circles all day about it.  I' rather not.  You cant discuss a complete disagreement about something.  I see no theme.    EDIT -  and its not in dispute who generally were the admins and of course the ubars.  Generally however does not mean always.  The admin was not a sub caste of the warriors caste.  Not saying you said that just pointing it out as the same goes for magistrate,  it is not a sub caste of scribes.    Archon is just another word for magistrate.  It is actually from greece where they had 9 Archons.  They were the rulers of their cities.  It really was a bad word for norman to use.   Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 18:31:48 It means ruler or leader, not magistrate therefore perhaps leader of all the record keepers ?   Only a Scribe could do that in my honest opinion.  But I really do understand your point.  And within even magistrates there would be various titles Norman gave them from the ancient world such as aediles, praetors, prefects and quaestors - with very hazy descriptions and actions of what they did.    [Latin archn, from Greek arkhn, from present participle of arkhein, to rule.] Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: Tariq Xue on 03. April 2011, 18:46:47 Quote from: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 18:31:48 It means ruler or leader, not magistrate therefore perhaps leader of all the record keepers ?   Only a Scribe could do that in my honest opinion.  But I really do understand your point.  And within even magistrates there would be various titles Norman gave them from the ancient world such as aediles, praetors, prefects and quaestors - with very hazy descriptions and actions of what they did.    [Latin archn, from Greek arkhn, from present participle of arkhein, to rule.]   are you going to try to say I am wrong about anything I post?   Origin: 1650–60;  < Greek árchōn  magistrate, ruler, noun use of present participle of árchein  to be first, rule; see archi-   http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/archon   Seriously.  I don't post a fact unless its checked.  Title: Re: Magistrates - Do they actually belong to any caste? Post by: serene mistwood on 03. April 2011, 18:55:03 Seriously, you have to stop taking this debate and forum personally.  I will debate here things I am interested in and have a differing opinion about or to agree with someone.  Its not personal.   :(  I'm done.   Powered by SMF | SMF © Simple Machines LLC

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Other:
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GOREAN PHILOSOPHY & PROTOCOL

Gorean Philosophy

     Speaking of Gor being real or fantasy, this is very confusing. Why can it cannot be both?

    I think the first question that must be asked is: What is Gor?  Does Gor reside in the details in the series of John Norman's books? Or is it a set of principles and philosophies that can be found throughout the series? Speaking of such as honor, respect, and integrity, and with a strong belief in the natural order of things being but a few of these principles referred to as philosophies!

    In my opinion, Gor is the approach to life and a method of interaction with the world, found throughout the series. In order to fully comprehend the dynamics of whether Gor is Fact or Fantasy, there are certain ideas that must be identified to lay the foundation for discovery.

        Among them is whether or not the ideals of Gor are peculiar to Gor! Did John Norman invent the cultures or did he simply use them to advance an society that he wanted to transcend the doldrums of our earthen existence?

        John Norman, while many think wise, did not invent these principles or philosophies, Earth history shows that honor and respect have been held in high esteem by many Earth cultures, as far back to the early BC eras.

        That alone should be a strong indicator that Gor is based far more in fact than fantasy. There are clearly defined differences between Norman's Gor and what reality dictates to us, among those are natural catalysts and consensual slavery. Free Persons have sharp differences in how they came to be a Free Person on Gor.  They have not had the benefit of being exposed to Gor's expectations and limitations. This often makes their decisions less than Gorean.

        Unlike the books, where most people were born and raised in a society that creates a mindset of home and caste before self, most people on earth have been taught their (own) individuality is paramount. Most forgetting or not knowing that Gor means Home Stone! The catalysts of Home Stone and caste loyalty before pride or self honor as well as potential slavery or death if acting dishonorably, are missing online as well as in real life.

        Most arrive in Gor believing that being Free Person means being all Powerful but they are forgetting that there is probable price with any action.

        “Consensual Slavery” that's a new twist, but not unheard of.

        Unlike the books, where most slaves were slaves out of circumstance... online and in real life slaves make a choice to enter bondage and serve.

        Anyone who chooses to enter may also choose to leave. This means there are no RUN-A-WAYS!

        This greatly changes the dynamics of slavery and ownership, and further indicating that the modality of behavior that Norman endorses in the books. Due to Earth laws and the limitations of the medium, and online, slaves always have the choice to simply not participate, and/or not to participate with YOU! These choices are real and must be recognized when owning a slave!

        You cannot force a slave to log on nor can you STOP a slave from logging off! Your control is based upon something more than the simple collar being placed on her and saying 'I OWN you'. Now it is incumbent to own, not just collar. While the modality of slavery and ownership are different than in the books, they are still based in philosophies and principles that Gor espouses, indicating that these too are not fictional or fantasy, but as real as the participants make them.

“Honor and Respect as part of the reality”

        Honor is a principled uprightness of character or personal integrity. This can mean many things to many people. However, it is held in such high regard by Goreans, it would be difficult to believe it is fantasy! Honor, simply stated, ‘is doing the right thing for the right reason, regardless of personal cost or preference!’ I fail to see how -- doing the right thing -- can ever be viewed or recognized as a fictional or fantasy act.

        Hand in hand with Honor is Respect!  Respect being a willingness to show consideration or appreciation. Are consideration and appreciation fictional?  Are they less real because they are intangible? Perhaps the biggest misconception in Gor is that respect is automatic and deserved without having done anything to earn the consideration or appreciation that we have spoken of.

        In reality, respect must be given to be received. Respect should be shown to all Goreans, even to slaves. Because Goreans believe that you should be who you are, and be what you are and do so to the best of your ability.

        Slaves are as capable of this as any Free Person, and always should be respected for doing so!

        Respect can be shown in many ways, among these, is how you address people. Because of the protocols believed to be inherent to Gor, this is probably the most evident and least understood.

        While many will take offense to the different terms seen and used daily in Gor, such as Brother and Sister; a Free Person using a person's name is never lacking in respect and always appropriate.

        Slaves by nature of their station have a different set of standards that apply. They must use Master and/or Mistress with Free Persons, omitting their names… while using the names of slaves when addressing other slaves.

        Greetings and well wishes are by far the most often seen examples of misunderstood (or misplaced) respect. Offering tidings in groups, while perhaps expeditious, it is never respectful.

        Every person has a name and most spend long hours selecting a name that represents their personality and their approach to Gor. To ignore that effort and intent is -- in itself -- disrespectful. It would be wise to know who you speak to and their perspective pertaining to Gor, before resorting to the popular online farewells, such as, “Wind and Steel” or “Blood and Honor”… everyone is not a Warrior… taking solace in these words. While there are many different methods of offering farewell in the books, two are by far, the most prominent. The phrase as – “I wish you well”– being used with Free Persons and – “serve well” – being used by the slaves.

        Additionally, offering tidings by title, lacks respect since titles have become common place and are often created simply to equate to greater self importance vice a real position of value or a role defined in the books.

        It has recently, online, become popular to greet and wish well by title or caste. At first glance, this seems appropriate and respectful, but a more discerning analysis of the practice, shows that there are two very definite drawbacks. This practice, in the correct setting can be confusing, and often disrespectful. The exceptions are the City Administrator or Ubar of the city you are currently in.  To recognize another CA or Ubar, before the Males of that city is disrespectful. This going back to the Home Stone being first in all things, it is highly disrespectful to recognize other Males before those whose hospitality you are enjoying.

        In addition to those fallacies, it also encourages people to create or misrepresent positions, so that they might be recognized in a higher status than their knowledge, caste, position, should dictate.

        A classic example is the misuse of the position of first girl. While there were first girls used in the books, (as in a coffle), they were never a first girl – or first slave – of an entire city. There was no slave that minded, and/or disciplined or ruled a city in the absence of Free Persons.

        Another often misrepresented role in Gor is that of a Panther Girl –or Taluna – often played as a bad-girl Free Woman, defying the customs and modesties, that are common among Free Women. Greeting a panther girl as Mistress is highly inappropriate.

        Panther girls have denounced the values and standards of Gorean society, also denouncing its protocol and behavioral expectations. Since they do not endorse the society that creates the standards, they need not expect its benefits. According to Norman, these women have exiled themselves from the typical Gorean society, electing a life that is less than luxurious and completely segregated from the main stream Gorean cities. These women elected a life of seclusion in small bands and trading only when necessary, since they trusted virtually no one in the Gorean society and because of that they never entered and city in their panther girl garb. Panther girls – when finding it necessary to enter a city – did so incognito and dressed as Free Women to avoid being recognized as Panther Girls, which would get them enslaved. As previously mentioned, respect must be given to be received. The panther girl – or Taluna – displays no respect for Gor, its ideals, or philosophies, and any respect shown back to them is a harsh slap in the face of the Gor we are discussing and had come to value. With that in mind, it would seem to me by addressing the Taluna as “Panther Girl” or the name of the “Panther Girl” would be the appropriate method of tidings to the Taluna.

        A similar, but less obvious anomaly that occurs in online Gor is the self appointed Head Mistress, and there are several problems with this misguided role and/or position. One of which is that the position of Head Mistress is without basis in Gor… [as with the misguided use of first girl]... and there was no Mistress that ran the city in the absence of Men, nor was their a Free Woman who simply by appointment, capable of training slaves to be pleasing to a Man and train the slave to know the desires of men.

        As previously stated, there is no basis for the role in the books; hence everything stated must be from observation and conjecture. But apparently, a Head Mistress is a trainer for a city, which raises several questions to anyone who have read the books… (How can a Free Woman, who has never been a slave, herself, know how to train a slave to please a Man, or know what a man wants – the exhibition men desire of their property? And further more, if she was a slave – and freed – then she was hardly a successful slave and therefore again not exactly the premier candidate to be a trainer of slaves. Of course, and Trainer could train slaves in what “NOT” to do and Train only the things that are available on any website, like protocol and drinks.

        Training a slave involves much more than knowing who and how to greet and well wish, some one must ask, if the information provided is available anywhere, then why is a self important title necessary? Does every Man, who trains, call himself Head Master? Isn't this carrying the titling and providing of positions just a little too far? Does this go back to being who you are, what you are, and doing it to the best of your ability?

        And if so, is it necessary to have a title and/or a position to do so? Or is it about creating an illusion of importance and purpose? Is it the proverbial role playing taken to the next level? Not just playing a role but creating one so that its accuracy cannot be questioned or critiqued? Which leads to another thought with all the role playing fantasy worlds, why is it necessary to utilize Gor as such?  Is Gor so appealing for the people who play games because those very people fail to understand its principles and philosophies?

 How did John Norman create His Gor?

        At first examination, it may seem flattering that role players have elected to utilize Norman's works as the basis for their pursuits.

        A closer look, however, reveals that the vast majority don’t even bother to read the works of Norman. Instead, they elected to gain their knowledge or basis of their role from the many ambiguous and misleading websites. This not only perpetuates online myths, it also leaves them clueless about the principles and the philosophies of Gor.

        This leads to the confusion and misunderstandings, pertaining to the reality of Gor, many delving into the details found all the known websites, vice the philosophies and principles that are in the Norman’s works of Gor.

        It doesn’t take a genius to know that Bosk and/or a Tarn and Kaiila are factious, and without a sound foundation. And nor do these role players realize that every culture of Gor was based upon and parallel civilization upon Earth. Indeed, it is readily ascertainable in reading the books of Gor.

     John Norman based the Wagon People to similar the Mongols of China. And he based Torvaldsland to similar the Norse, (the Vikings), of Scandinavia. And he based Tahari to similar the Arabic cultures of the middle east. And he based the Red Savages of the Barrens so to similar the Plain Tribes of Native Americans. And he based the Red Hunters of The Polar North to similar the Eskimos.

        There is much more to being Gorean, and understanding Gor, than just simply choosing a name to a role and pretending that you have been transported to a distant planet.

        As a concerned Gorean, I hope that people would aspire to be more than a role when they turn on the computer, and is forgot about when the computer is turn off. The possibilities are limited only by your desire and imagination.

         While I doubt this discussion has changed a single mind about anything we've talked here, it’s our hope that we have created some thought and caused some questions which may open a few minds to the alternative perspectives. The topics discussed are but a sampling of the things people seem to accept and not question. The vigor with which we question things may vary, from role to role, that we must do so, and constantly, is self evident.

        Free people and slaves alike must question the authenticity of a specific Gorean role and its behavior, by doing so can the reality of Gor remain constant as its principles and philosophies are adhered to. Gor is not about slaves, sex, tarns and sleens, instead it’s about striving to be who you are, what you are, to the best of your ability, while acknowledging and following the natural order of things.

        While self realization, self improvement, self awareness and contributing to a larger good are abstract and intangible, then they are real and valid pursuits. Pursuits that Goreans, as a group, take great pride in. If Gor is to elevate to a level beyond fantasy and role playing, it’s incumbent upon each of us to do our part. This can mean learning and questioning or participating in homes that represent the Gorean values that are real, even if intangible. In this pursuit of improvement and learning, the importance of Honor and Respect in our lives will become unquestionable. To be Gorean will become paramount and self evident to your happiness!

Take time to view these questions and mull them over… read the Gor books, again if you have to, even if you don’t agree with them they are still good reading.

If you're seeking Gor then I suggest you learn a little of the Protocols (Laws& Rules) of the City States.

 GOREAN  Protocols 

(1)- Pledges

Those that have made a formal pledge to any Gor chat on any Media are recognized as Citizens, they have decided to take part in that Gorean Society. However some medias listed as role play are not considered sound Gorean Learning Centers and are advised to stay clear of those places. They can be found in Palace, Halsoft, Yahoo, AOL, and Secondlife, so be careful.

    a. FORMAL PLEDGE

That means in the present of the Chief Administrator, (mind you there are many administrators but only one Chief Administrator of a city), the First Sword, and any male Scribe to take the minutes, next to the Home Stone. Slaves may enter the home stone room but they are to karta face-down on the floor next to their owners in complete silence.

• If a warrior is pledging: He does so by taking his knife, cutting his hand and allowing his blood to drip at the base of the Home Stone, while pledging his sword and life to the City he swears to protect.
• If a Scribe is pledging: He/She swears to record only what is true, leaving out any speculations.
• If a Physician pledging: He/She swears to the best of their ability to heal.
• If a Builder pledging: He/She presents their square and promises to build safe buildings only
• During pledging the Free is to present their Caste or Position.
• Only Initiates do not pledge, they have this immunity. This is based on Gorean Law.
• Most chats require a 1 week period before a Free can pledge, this is to give them time to look over the city and see if it's what they are looking for. However in some cases the 1 week period can be waved if the party is certain that is what they wish. The same thing for slaves, 1 week before a slave can beg collar, and it will be a City collar. It's premature for any slave to assume that she's entitled to a personal collar. She will need time to train and be the way that particular city wishes her to be and all slaves will have to serve in City collar until the CA decides that particular slave is ready for a personal owner.
• HIGH COUNCIL:
• The CA does not sit on the High Council.
• The Council votes, then hand the vote to the CA and he makes it Law.
• Only 5 High Male Caste members have seats on the High Council.

            1. White: Head Initiate.

            2. Blue: Head Scribe.

            3. Green: Head Physician.

            4. Yellow: Head Builder.

            5. Red (Scarlet) First Sword, Chief {or High} Commander. 

Note: Free Women of Gor please take no offence but there are no Free Women on the seat of the High Council. 

(2)- Internal Disputes

• If anyone can not settle their disagreements among themselves, three High Caste: Initiate, Chief Administrator, CA, and First Sword, (the scribe is there to take notes), will be convened to review the situation, the out come of is FINAL and PERMANENT, as it is in Most Gorean Cities States.

Only the high caste has a say in any government situation: Making new laws, adjusting old laws, reforming protocols, etc., etc.

Low caste, even though they are Free, they have no say in any government development nor do they have second knowledge.

    [Chief Administrator]:

• Should it be difficult for the CA to attend on a regular bases a  station of the CA       can appoint a Regent to guard his throne and rule in his place, and his rule will be honored. When the CA comes back then the Regent stands down.
   

{Ubars}: Only used during time of war as a war General. After the dispute is over the Ubar gives up his station and hands the government back to the Chief Administrator. If the Ubar refuses the First Sword aka Chief Commander and the Warriors and the City Guards can run the Ubar out of the city, bound in ropes and the First Sword can take his head.

(3)- The use of the Messengers:

• Yahoo, MSN, AOL, and other medias not mentioned here, are not for capturing, forced collaring, etc, etc.
   

(4)- Changing homes

• Renouncing one's pledge must be done in the presences of the CA and scribe so that the individual can move on with honor and respect, long as they have not done any thing illegal to be discharged for. If anyone moves to a new homestone without the proper procedure can and/will be charged for treason.

(5)- Caste

• Gorean Caste is a rigid social structure which is conferred by birth, except for slaves and Initiates.
• There are five(5) extremely high caste, above all other high caste: {Head Initiate, Head Scribe, Head Builder, Head Physicians, Head Warrior}, and in that order, are privileged by their status, (as all other high caste), to be privy to double knowledge. Unlike those of the many lower castes such as, (tradesmen, craftsmen, artisans, artist, bakers, tavern and Inn keepers, slavers), the list goes on... who know only first knowledge.
• Governments are elected and administrated by the Council High Caste only.
• The caste is a source of long pride and brotherhood. Like the homestone, the caste takes precedent over the individual.
• I have seen places where the Tavern Master, Kennel Mistress, sat on the High Council, braking all the Gorean Laws. Some say that they were observing Gorean lifestyle and not Role Play, one can still observe lifestyle and obey all the Gorean Laws.
   

(6)- Changing caste

• It is possible to change caste but it is rarely done in the books. In the books: To lose Caste is the ultimate dishonor, however in Second life, Palace Gor and other Gorean medias there is great leniency in changing caste.

[Reference of this law]: Book 1, Tarnsman of Gor, pages 41-42. Book 3, Priest Kings of Gor, page 71. Book 14, Fighting Slaves of Gor, page 209-211. Book 22, Dancer of Gor, page 186-187. And Book 24, Vagabonds of Gor, page 378.

 

• However, according to Second Life and Palace Gor, and other Gorean medias to change caste because one discovers that the caste they currently have is not appropriate (for them) and they wish one that is, they may do so with permission of the CA and that within itself becomes an acceptable honor.

Protocol Regarding Free Women: 

(1)- These protocols are not in association with the Wagon People of southern Turia, or the Northern Forest, or Torvaldsland, or the Polar North; there are different Laws and Rules Governing those areas. The following laws and rules are for the Gorean City States.

(Take note, some SL home-stones allow FW to roam KoRoBa without veil).

 

• The Laws and Rules seen here are regarded for online areas associated with City States listed in the books: (example) Lara, Vonda, Ar, Port Olni, Thentis, Ti, Port Kar, and the list goes on throughout the books of gor.
• In any city state, robes of concealment, will be worn by all Free Women. They must remember, they are Free Women because the Men allow it and if they refuse to wear robes of concealment they can be enslaved if they so choose to act like a slave. Gorean men retain the right to enslave any woman who behaves in a manner deemed to be (counting the Ko'lar). And refusal to wear garments of concealment, at the very least, falls under this category. Concerning the issue if the veils, there is no law stating that FW must wear the veil; this is their individual desire as a FW.
• The only Free Women exempt from wearing veils and robes of concealment are of the Tuchuk and other communities of the wagon people, whom according to the scrolls (the gor books) don't travel about fully concealed and/or veiled, unless traveling to any of the City States then they cover and veil out of respect for the City Rules. However, in Palace Gor, no Free Woman is allowed to claim Tuchuk for the sole purpose of not wearing robes of concealment... if she is found out she can be enslaved on that term alone, or ban from all city states.
• Free Women must remember that Men always have the last voice. If any FW attempts to challenge a Free Man, as to embassies him in public she can be face striped and put in irons. She has a voice as long as she respectfully ask Free Men if she could speak. Arrogance in any FW has found their way in irons. Free Men will not tolerate that from any FW.
• FW have been found in shops selling their wears, even helping male trainers to train in things that only a woman can teach slave girls: grace in dancing, grace in serves, proper use of makeup and hair, etc., etc.
• Let me make one thing clear... the Ubar of Ar passed the Law that Free Women didn't have to wear veils: (although the majority of the FW did). You won't find this part written down in any Gorean Book, you have to read and search each paragraph, (reading in-between-the-lines so to speak). It was a cleaver trick for if any FW was caught doing anything wrong they could be enslaved right then and there, simply because the FW wasn't wearing her veils. The Ubar got around that. The veils is the key to everything.

There are five veils a Free Woman wears, (of course they can't be worn online): but are very important for the FW to know, as if she is wearing them. Online, if the Free Woman was to be face-striped the Free Man will have to know the veils as well and named each one in reverse as he takes them off.

 

• (1) Last Veil: (or the very first, the inner most veil).
• (2) House Veil: (or second veil worn) in the house when in the company of men who are not of her family.
• (3) Pride Veil: (3rd veil) which shows her station as a Free Woman.
• (4) Citizen's Veil: (4th veil) she wears as a pledge of her vowels of loyalty.
• (5) Street Veil: (5th veil) usually it's the caste color of her Free Companion or the caste of her choice, if she has one. Caste means a color code of her specialties ~ builder, shops, pottery, etc, etc.

Other Veils

• Intimacy Veil: a long linear diaphanous face veil worn by Free Woman, it's opacity is determined by how many times it is wrapped about the face. Book 12, Beast of Gor... page 404.
• Slave Veil: a small triangle diaphanous yellow silk worn across the bridge of the nose, worn by Free Women, very sheer and covering the lower half of the face. (It conceals nothing) and often used to arouse the lust of men. Book 11 - Slave Girl of Gor, page 107.
• Rep-Cloth Veil: a rough veil worn by Free Women of the lower caste. Book 5 - Assassin of Gor, page 141.

(example): If a FW was attacked and forcibly stripped of her clothes - (she still had on her veils) - she was able to escape her antagonist and redress herself, she can not be enslaved due to her nudity alone. She had to be removed of her veils as well, the veils are the key to the FW's freedom, her status in the free Gorean world.

 

• All I'm saying here is, not everything is printed back & white. John Norman's novels are not page by page text book of how to do things, John Norman's Gor is a way of life. And much of it you need to read between the lines for the answers on a few things. Like the next paragraph, (2-Nudity), "Free women are not to be seen public in the nude..." of course not, but if one is unlawfully forcibly stripped of her clothes she has a right to defend herself and escape and redress herself, she still maintains her honor. All the books are written in that fashion. One needs to dissect each paragraph, in how it's written, to determine its exact meaning.

 (2)- Nudity

• Free women are not to be seen public in the nude, or uncovered showing parts of her body as a slave would. Free Women are to maintain dignity in their station or she could be counting the Ko'lar aka collar. 
•  And even then if there is a man visiting who is not of her family she is to wear the first and second veils while he is visiting. 

(3)- Counting the Ko'lar

• Free Women who crouch in public with slaves are seen as 'Counting the Ko'lar' and can be enslaved. This is not the same as slaves nadu with palms up or down. Free Women have been seen in a respectful tower position which is not crouching and not in the same area where slaves are gathered. They are fully clothed and veils intact. Mind you, FW towering is not crouching. They tower with their hands in their laps, back straight and eyes slightly lowered to the ground.

 Conduct for Visitors

 
• Y/you may not agree with the Gorean lifestyle, which is to be expected. But as long as you are a guest in any Gorean Media... [SL, Palace, Yahoo, Halsoft] ...You will show respect for those who take this lifestyle seriously.
• As with Homestone, respect is a big part of Gor and if you forget that part, (respect), you will be shown the door and most likely you will not be returning.
• After several visits and Y/you have shown an interest in Gor Y/you will be given a time limit -- 1 week -- where Y/you'll be observed. Some medias give a earthly month and after that time Y/you'll be asked to either pledge or beg ko'lar, whichever the case may be. Until a Free Person pledges their status is (according to the books) is outlaw, that's a Free Person with no pledged Home Stone, they may be innocent or guilty of any crime yet they are strangers to any gorean community and they are bound to prove their loyalty.
• Taluna -- panther girl -- do not pledge to any home stone, they have given up any rights and do not trust any Gorean Government.
• Panther girls have denounced the values and standards of Gorean society, also denouncing its protocol and behavioral expectations. Since they do not endorse the society that creates the standards, they need not expect its benefits. According to Norman, these women have exiled themselves from the typical Gorean society, electing a life that is less than luxurious and completely segregated from the main stream Gorean cities. These women elected a life of seclusion in small bands and trading only when necessary, since they trusted virtually no one in the Gorean society and because of that they never entered any city in their panther girl garb. Panther girls – when finding it necessary to enter a city – did so incognito and dressed as Free Women to avoid being recognized as Panther Girls, which would get them enslaved. As previously mentioned, respect must be given to be received. The panther girl – or Taluna – displays no respect for Gor, its ideals, or philosophies, and any respect shown back to them is a harsh slap in the face of the Gor in which we all come to Love and value.

Caste of Thieves

 
• Caste of Thieves is recognized ONLY inside the boundaries of Port Kar. Anyone caught stealing will be banned... no questions asked.
   

Protocol Regarding Slaves:

There is no first girl of a City that takes over in the absences of the Free. There are first girls in a coffle chain should any owner had more than one girl, and the first girl of the coffle is the one who keeps the other slaves (her sisters) in line. She makes sure they do their studies, practices their dances, and their serves, cooking and other chores. The first girl is most definitely highly red silk trained girl.

The fg answers to the Master/Mistress of that coffle.

 
• A kajira, passion silk, pleasure silk, Tavern (inn), Paga Den, house slave, one who has willfully submitted themselves completely to the will of the Free.
• her limits are defined by her owner and they are to be respected. City owned slaves have different limits then that of personally owned slaves. City owned have little or no restrictions on them. Personally owned slaves could be highly restricted.
•  no Master or Mistress is to use any personal property without first getting permission from the girl's owner, period.
• All personally owned girls are restricted in some manner, yet some are allowed to serve drinks, food, and/or warm feet. Any thing else other than that use is required permission from the owner.

Permission, what does that mean exactly? To clarify this more clearly lets talk boats. I have a 50' yacht and you wish to barrow it for a day. It's not uncommon for me to want to know exactly where you will be taking my yacht, and how far out on the water will my yacht be. Most importantly, what will my yacht be used for. Secondly, I'll be lending you my yacht in mint-condition and I expect it back in that same condition.

 
• The same principle applies when asking to use City or Personally owned property of any Gorean City State, and given a specific purpose of her use I expect that's exactly what the property will be used for. 
• It doesn't mean secretively exposing City or Personally owned property to your cam. Privately owned, and City girls, are not fur-bunnies. They work hard to be the best they can be: {dances, serves, chores}. However, this doesn't rule out the fact that city slaves, (red silk passion slaves), won't go to an alcove with a Master so he can have his way with her. Gor isn't about sex, still there is sex in Gor. If the girl's serve eventually leads you there then I say... enjoy. But if that's the only reason you come to Gor for is to cyber slaves, then you're in gor for all the wrong reasons.
   

Uncollared Slaves:

 
• In the Gor Books there is no such thing as an un-owned slave. Second Life and Palace Gor there is no such thing as an un-owned slave. This law in Second Life and in Palace Gor, and other medias, has become flexible because it's online. Slaves submit themselves to a City by their own free will. Remember earlier: "you can't stop a slave from logging on and you can stop a slave from logging off," unquote. The slave is there because she wishes to be there and if you mistreat her she will no longer be there, and the word will be out on you, she will tell everyone what you did to her... true or false it will be out there. This is one of the many reasons why there are so many empty homes. Slave girls are very smart, they can spot inexperience Masters the moment they lay eyes on them.
• Most Cities, SL and Palace Gor, have a no force-collar, no capture rule, where uncollared slaves can stay and learn. Some cities won't let uncollared slaves serve until they wear a city collar. But there is a time limit to the City's hospitality and it's usually 30 days which time the slave must make a choice. Accept a city collar and continue learning, or move on to a different chat media that accepts uncollared slaves infinitely. 
• Too many times in the past slaves have been found testing to see how far they can push the issue of not collaring and that within it self has become a game.

    Rules of Conduct for Kajira and Kajiru

• Jealousy and envy will not be tolerated in kajira or kajiru.. They have no place in a slaves mentality and shall be punished.
• Gor will not tolerate dishonesty from anyone, especially slaves.  
• A slave upholds the honor of his/her Master's House at all times.  
• Kajira and kajiru will serve all equally and will make no attempt to distinguish between Gor and non Gor free, unless told to do so.  
• There will be no serving of any one that do not respect the ways of Gor, and these un-respectful individuals will be asked to leave. If they don't they will be killed off the server and ban.  
• Always strive to be as pleasing as possible to the one you are serving, and give them your full attention during the time you are with them.  Your actions are a direct reflection on the City, the CA, and all citizens of the City.
• There will be no actions taken by any slave that might be counterproductive to the home. Any one wishing to be sold, shall bring their request to CA or their owner and it will be consider.  
• Slave's mindset is always to appears pleasing...would never consider crying in public, or anything else that would draw attention to themselves and dishonor the Home they represent.  They will not discuss home issues in public. If unsure it is better sit on the side of good judgment. If a slave is sick he/she is not to come online at all, but send a message of their condition by messenger.  
• A White Silk in training may not enter a tavern or inn without being accompanied by the Master/ Mistress/ Trainer. They are NOT to serve food, drinks or attempt any dances in the presence of any other Masters or Mistresses but their own. If you are a white silk in training, let the occupants of the tavern know, by requesting permission to enter and study.  If you are asked to serve anyway, please inform the Mistress/Master requesting such that you in training and will do your best to please.  
• A trained White Silk must maintain their modesty. White Silks may NOT sit upon another Masters lap or dance.  They may not serve food and drink unless given permission to do so my their Master/Owner/trainer, and they are NOT to engage in any physical contact with another Master. If such is requested they should politely beg forgiveness but inform the Master/Mistress that such is forbidden by their Home. A white silk serves in Tower. Their thighs are kept closed. Do not put the goblet between them but in front of them. Do not touch it to your heat.  Note that no physical contact with a white silk kajiru is allowed as well.
• During the period that the slave wears the "white silks" they will not go to the furs unless it is part of their training. They will not enter into a private room with anyone other than their Master/Mistress.  
• Slaves do not beg to enter, they quietly go to the serving furs and wait to be greeted, then they may greet the Free.  
• If you must go AFK for a short period of time, request permission to be inattentive for a moment. If it is a longer period of time, request permission to leave and do so. If an emergency comes up in Real Life leave and then explain when you get back.
• Note: First Girls... do not correct another slave in open chat. If you feel it is absolutely necessary to correct another slave, do so in IM's.  
• Note: slaves are trained differently from City State to City State, what is correct for you, may not seem so for another: There are many inexperienced Free in all chat medias, slaves need to be aware of this.  
• The tavern is for serve; no leaving except for (screen freeze, Real Life emergency). It would be better to request in whisper to a Master or Mistress... in this way the entire room is not subjected to your personal issues. 
• The person you are serving must have your entire focus. You do not to greet anyone entering, you do not to smile at a brother or sister. If the one you are serving is punted, give them a respectful amount of time to return. You may either continue your serve to the point that you kneel before the free you're serving.  A good kajira /kajiru, however, remembers that Master/Mistress and if they return, is good form to ask if they wish the serve completed at the time.
• All free persons are to be addressed as Master or Mistress (read their profiles when they enter if you do not know them). Greet them as such when they enter, unless you are serving. If you don't know their gender, then address them as Master. If they request differently, remember the freeperson is always correct. Do so, but you may blush or look uncomfortable to do such. Remember, assume the situation in real life and you meet someone for the first time, how would you know their name? Of course slaves are not allowed to utter a Master's name, but this was just for an example.  
• While freepersons are not always right, as far as a slave goes, they are never wrong. You have the last words. They are "Yes Master, Yes Mistress." Arguing with a freeperson is not allowed. And never correct a freeperson in front of others, or any time for that matter.  
• A slave does not start a conversation with a free person, unless they first request permission to speak and get it. You don't keep advertising your presence by asking if you may serve. If a freeperson looks to the serving furs, your eyes are supposed to be down, you may not answer verbally, however you can make some action to show you are available. 
• Slaves do not normally speak in IM's (instant message) to any free person you do not know without first requesting permission to "whisper". There will be times when you need clarification or help. Or need information in regards to an SL or Palace user. Use good judgment. There is no restriction on slave to slave IM's. 
• Note: White Silk Slaves are not allowed to speak with another Master/Mistress in whispers unless it has been expressly stated to the slave by their owner.  This also extends to kajira at such times that it is believed that a Master/Mistress may be using the kajira to try and get around this rule. 
• If you receive an IM you consider vulgar or inappropriate, report it to your Master/Mistress or one you know in the room. Ask permission to ignore such a person. Note such permission will always be granted to a slave.  A polite but firm request to the offending party, from a Master or Mistress, to leave the slave alone has worked wonders in many an instance. 
• Slaves shall use the proper syntax at all times while speaking in the Tavern. i.e., Third person. There is no "I", "me", "my" or "mine" in a slaves vocabulary. This is not meant to be degradable but to demonstrate the exotic and beauty each slave holds... and to stand them apart from Free persons. 
• City Collared and uncollared slaves are subject to the discipline of the Citizens of any given city, should their behavior in the taverns or public warrant such. Any owned slaves, the owners should be spoken to. 
• Slaves will dutifully submit to any punishment administered by a free person. Collared slaves may be asked to leave the Tavern and their Master/Mistress notified. Repeat offenders are subject to banishment from the Tavern or paga den. 
• Any free person become too obnoxious you may request a Master of the home to look into the matter and if the Master agrees he will send you to another to serve and ask the obnoxious one to leave. 
• Slaves shall not handle any money. Gorean law states that slaves carry money in their teeth, or in a small pouch around their neck or waste, and handled only by their owners. 
• Slaves shall not handle ANY weapon at any time, (except fighting slaves that serve as guards). This includes knives used in cooking. The exception are specially trained fighting slaves used as bodyguards; Vonda is a good place for fighting slaves.  There is no such thing as a fighting kajira. Of course this is online, in real life is much different. 
• You are slave. A slave is property. If you are not up to serving in a pleasing manner, stay out of the tavern or inn, in fact stay offline. You may be alluring, appealing, even humorous, but you are not to be graphically erotic.
• If a slave uses her heat in a serve then she must be prepared to submit to that Master. However, this is not a brothel, slaves are to have class and reserve such serves for the alcove. 
• Bratty subs, insubordinate behavior, or "snootiness" will not be tolerated and offenders will be asked to leave. 
• Often a room will contain few Masters and many slaves, which results in a lot of slaves who have no one to serve. If this is so, find other ways to make yourself useful: doing chores, cleaning, cooking, mending clothes, etc. In addition, one does not just sit silently in a room awaiting a call to service. Make your presence known, but do not pester each Master and beg to serve, or stand up and loudly ask if anyone needs service. This does not constitute pleasing behavior. 
• Slaves are allowed, even expected, to have fun in the area. This includes engaging in pleasant conversation with other slaves; still, a wise slave knows when to shut up, and weighs each remark carefully. 
• Behave appropriately. If you are given an instruction which you do not understand or feel is inappropriate, ask for clarification. If ordered to do something which you feel to be unlawful, contact a Master or Mistress and beg for aid. 
• There are dozens of Gorean taverns and inns. All are different.  Masters and Mistresses will vary according to their slaves willingness to aid and advise you. If you need further assistance and it is not forthcoming, contact your fellow slaves and ask for advice. Often they can steer you in the right direction. 
• The rules set forth are not negotiable, they are for protection of all girls and those slaves who visit. 

What Is A Caste:

Caste of Initiates
First of the High Castes. The white robed representatives, they are responsible for guiding the spiritual life of Goreans though their rituals and prayers. Their white robes, their shaven heads and faces, and their refusal to eat meat or drink alcohol recognize them as the Initiate of Gor. Their Caste Color: White. They also sit on the high council of Initiate Court which is very rare, they even over shadow the City Magistrate.  

Caste of Scribes
Second of the High Castes. They are the scholars, the writers and the historians, in modern day they are the office workers. In their scrolls they do all of the accounting, records keeping, and writing of and on Gor. They tend to be studious and serious, with an attention to detail and a passion for knowledge in Gorean Law. Their Caste Color: Blue. 

Caste of Physicians

Third of the high Castes. This is the caste of those who concern themselves with the healing arts. Surgeons, apothecaries, medical researchers and health practitioners, in Gor these people are all member of this caste. Their Caste Color: Green. 

Caste of Builders 

Fourth of the High Castes. This caste includes architects, engineers, draftsmen, stone-masons, and many others, which concern themselves with the creations of the physical and engineering marvels. Their Caste Color: Yellow. 

Caste of Warriors 

Fifth of the High Castes. The First Sword aka Chief Commander sits on the High Council, no other warrior does, not even the Second Sword. This caste (speaking in terms of Gor) includes Taurentian (a special guard for the Administrator or Ubar), infantry, tharlarion cavalry, and tarnsmen. They are known to have the strictest set of caste codes on Gor. In the actual world this caste can be comprise of the military branch of the Armed Forces, Police Departments, Security Officers, Secret Service, and the list goes on. Their Caste Color: Scarlet. 

What is Low Caste: 

"Low Caste" 

Caste of Slavers

This Caste deals in human merchandise. Color: Blue and Yellow.

 Caste of Sailors

This caste includes several sub-castes. Sailors don't normally have Home Stones because they are usually at sea or traveling the sea and/or river ways most of the time. Color: Blue and Gold. Do not mistaken Pirates as the caste of Sailors, Pirates are outlaws and have no caste and nor do they claim any Home Stone.

Caste of Pot Makers

They are involved in the production of containment vessels. Color: Brown and Green.

Caste of Saddle Makers

They produce the saddlers, harness, and tack used to manage all of the various riding and draft beasts of Gor. Color: Tan.

Caste of Metal Workers

They are concerned with the production of most metal items fabricated upon Gor. There is also a subclass for the blacksmiths of Gor. Color: Steel Gray.

Caste of Woodsmen

This caste is concerned with protecting and managing the vast resources of various Gorean forests claimed by a particular city or village. They are experts in various forms of woodcrafts and are forest hunters, forest marshals, and forest trackers of Gor. Color: Brown and Black.

Caste of Poets

Those who concern themselves with the creation of the poems of Gor. Color Aqua and Red. 

Caste of Torturers (Wagon People)

Not a common Gorean caste, found only among the Wagon People. Color: Black and Red.

Caste of Players

This caste is made of those who have dedicated their lives to the furtherance of the Gorean game of Kaissa. A rare caste but found and supported in almost any city. Members of this caste are granted blanket immunity to prosecution and slavery, and are highly regarded based upon there level of skill. They wear distinctive hooded robes in their caste color. Color: Checkered, Red and Yellow.

Municipal Servants

Concerned with providing various public services to a specific city or village. Color: Gray.

Guardsmen

This caste is responsible for patrolling the city or village streets, arresting those that disobey the laws and assuring the general well being of the citizens. They have no specific color, as they wear the color of the city or village they work in. For instants, Thentis Flag is Gray & Green which corresponds to the colors of the Tarn Keepers. Thentis being the main supplier of tarns, their breeding, training, and the sale of each tarn, along with the blackwine beans grown on the Thentis mountain. 

Caste of Tarn Keepers

This caste concerns itself with the care, feeding, training of tarn, the fierce winged saddle-bird of Gor. Color: Gray and Green.

Caste of Merchants

Those who are of this caste are concerned with the sale and trade of merchandise for a profit. There are almost as many sub-castes of the Merchants as there are products to be sold, The Merchant's Caste colors are White and Gold. However the Merchant Caste also includes the Slavers caste, which is Blue and Yellow. Tavern and Inn keepers can fall within this Caste as Merchants.

Caste of Singers

This caste concerns itself with the performance of verbal entertainment set to music. Colors: Aqua and Red. 

Caste of Assassins

This caste is comprised of those who kill strictly for pay. Their existence has long been suppressed, though they still appear occasionally. They refuse to use poison to dispatch their enemies (they consider it the mark of an amateur) and are required by their caste codes to renounce all ties of friendship and family. In addition they claim NO home stone. Color: Black.

Caste of Peasants

The lowest and most common on Gor, which is concerned with the maintenance, planting and harvesting of the vast lands surrounding most cities which have been divided into plots and set aside for agricultural use. They have rather strict caste codes, and are considered the masters of several forms of distinctive peasant weaponry, including the quarterstaff and the Great Bow, or "Peasant Bow." Color: Brown.

Caste of Charcoal Makers

This caste concerns itself with the production of charcoal for use in Gorean forges and ovens. Color: Black and Gray.

Release Rights:

• All slaves, Second life and Palace Gor and other medias, (personally or city owned), have a right to beg release if her collar had led to a mental or emotional abuse by their owner or by some other means...

{Second Life, Palace Gor, and other Medias: Rather a City, Village, Wagon People, Northern regions, Polar Areas, are associated with the books of Gor: author John Lange, written under the writer's name of John Norman}.

http://thentis.epalaces.com/ 

http://www.cityofrovere.com/

http://www.cityofrovere.com/index.php/section-2-the-courts

http://lawbook.wikidot.com/quotes-homestone 

 Will have to look at this in more depth at a later date.